Monday, November 14, 2005

Pakistan Hindu girls forced to convert to Islam

Horrible conditions for the few remaining non-Muslims in Pakistan:

Pak Hindu girls forced to convert to Islam

An alarming trend — that of Muslims kidnapping Pakistani Hindu girls and forcing them to convert to Islam — in Pakistan’s Sindh province is forcing the worried resident Hindu community to marry off their daughters as soon as they are of marriageable age or to migrate to India, Canada or other nations. Recently, at least 19 such abduction cases have occurred in Karachi alone, while several others have been reported in the media. Sanao Menghwar, a Hindu resident of Karachi’s Punjab Colony, is a traumatised man; all three of his daughters —Aishwarya, Reena and Reema — have been kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam.


Via The Adventuress:


Dignified Response to Oppression


Hundreds of Christians have worshipped in the open air after a Muslim mob in eastern Pakistan burnt down churches over allegations that a Christian had desecrated the Koran. The crowd, including women wearing black armbands to protest Saturday's attacks, also demanded protection for the minority community in the small town of Sangla Hill. "They held their Sunday mass and dispersed peacefully," police officer Mohammad Asghar told AFP. A police contingent cordoned off the area near a gutted church in Sangla Hill, 80 kilometres (50 miles) west of Lahore, capital of Punjab province.

Pakistan: 16 Muslims reportedly rape Christian girl


A 12-year-old Christian girl was reportedly abducted and gang raped by 16 Muslim men in Pakistan. The alleged offence occurred at Rawlpindi, bordering Pakistans capital city of Islamabad. According to a news release from the All Pakistan Minorities Alliance (APMA), Sara Tabasum escaped two weeks later while she was being transported to a new location. APMA reported Tabasum managed to jump out of the vehicle and escape while it was on a busy road. Although the youngster was pursued, she still managed to reach her family.

Pakistan model state for Muslim world: Rice


"Pakistan is a model country for the Muslim world," Rice said. In Washington, she had stated that she would push General Musharraf on "commitment to a democratic path" for his country. Rice also held a separate meeting with Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz and exchanged views on Pak-US relations, regional security and other important regional and international issues.

23 Comments:

At November 14, 2005 5:08 PM, Blogger oskar said...

And we're supposed to send money to the earthquake victims in Pakistan? Sure, it's hardly the fault of these people, but I for one am not to keen on helping out a government which treats its minorities in this way.

 
At November 14, 2005 5:09 PM, Blogger oskar said...

And muslims in Europe complain! Even though the muslim communities in the Middle East and South Asia are indigenous they're treated much, much, much worse than any immigrant muslim communities are treated in Europe.

 
At November 14, 2005 5:42 PM, Blogger Ole said...

While I can admire Condi Rice's intellect and success, I do not like her conciliatory remarks regarding Pakistan.

 
At November 14, 2005 7:55 PM, Blogger Chip said...

Fjordman,

I hope you don't give up the fight for some stupid "hate speech" law. I realize the threat to your personal safety could become real, but we all need to find a well of courage to continue this fight.

You can post on my blog if it becomes necessary. Also, feel free to contact me at any time, or visit. I'll switch my Beagle blog name to a safe mail at LGF any time you wish.

I've never met you, but I consider you a kindred spirit, with better language skills.

 
At November 14, 2005 10:50 PM, Blogger PD111 said...

Indonesia like Pakistan, has had a lot of largesse from our governments as well as charity from individuals. Yet our charity is used as another tool to persecute Christians.
If you intend to donate, then please consider the Barnabus Fund, as this charity helps the most marginalised and persecuted people on this planet - Christians in muslim nations. I have been writing about this for over three years. If we cannot persuade our governments from giving away our money to muslim nations, the least we can do is to help the really persecuted.

 
At November 14, 2005 11:21 PM, Blogger Fjordman said...

Hello, DP111. Always welcome here, but I thought you said you would leave by now?

I will post another couple of issues in my online workshop tomorrow: How do we identify Islam's weak points, exploit them and try to regain our own strength? What is the future for Western civilization and Europe in particular in the 21st century? Your input is most welcome, if you have the time.

Chip: No, I'm not leaving because of that law. It would make blogging more complicated, but not impossible. I'm leaving for personal reasons. And yes, I will leave in early December. That decision is final.

 
At November 14, 2005 11:47 PM, Blogger Caroline said...

Fjordman - this is off topic for this post but thank you for the link to the Philip Atkinson (www.ourcivilisation.com). I know I saw it here on your blog somewhere but can't find the thread now. I also saw it on your LGF comments. It's going to take a while to wade through, there's so much there. After reading some of the briefer entries, I just got through reading "A simple example of communal decline: A letter from South Africa." Totally chilling in the way it describes the slow collapse of society. I expect we will see that in France soon and in Europe not far behind. The truth is that it fills me with utter loathing for leftist "liberals" who have such contempt for what western civilization has so fragily constructed over centuries. As your previous post about that woman who is fleeing the suburbs, suggests, leftist liberals never seem forced to face the consequences of their own actions (Maybe she's not a leftist liberal - I don't understand how these terms translate internationally). They just flee the consequences because they can often afford to do so, leaving everyone else in the squalor their policies have created. Now we have Europeans fleeing Europe (those who can afford to) for the US and Australia. Atkinson's overall vision of the west in decline and being colonized by the 3rd world (and eventually plunging the world back into a new dark ages) is extremely bleak but I see evidence for his claim everywhere. Definitely not recommended for the faint of heart...

 
At November 15, 2005 12:11 AM, Blogger Fjordman said...

Caroline: This is indeed a civilizational crisis. My best bet is that parts of Western Europe will be deeply damaged by this, some maybe even destroyed. There will be war, soon, but the continent as a whole won't buckle under. Even though Europe, or at least parts of it, will manage to linger on, it will no longer be a global force of any significance. The USA is in a stronger position, and will be salvaged in part because of witnessing the example of European implosion.

 
At November 15, 2005 12:22 AM, Blogger Thomas Bolding Hansen said...

Well even to be polite and to keep a good relationship on a pragmatic basis with Pakistan, any need to take the most absurd praise phrases out of the diplomatic briefcase.

She could have expressed appreciation of the cooperation, no need to lie.

 
At November 15, 2005 12:26 AM, Blogger PD111 said...

fjordman

Last couple of days, then we start packing.

Some important links to read

It’s the demography, stupid - Mark Steyn

http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php?issue=2005-11-12&id=6901

Chilling.

As well as an article by Ron Liddle on the same site.

 
At November 15, 2005 12:29 AM, Blogger PD111 said...

fjordman

If you find any use of posts I put up here and there, you are most welcome to use them in any form.

 
At November 15, 2005 12:52 AM, Blogger PD111 said...

Some continue to argue and appeal that we give muslims the chance to reform.

In the final analysis though, it is demography that counts.

The answer to such appeals is simple enough.

So let us consider the hypothetical situation that ALL muslims at present living in the West, accepted the call to clean up their communities of extremism. They even went further and made the changes in their teachings of the koran and the jihad. Such an outcome would no doubt come as a relief to many on this site and elsewhere. But I counter, that all such changes were being done merely to protect the ummah while it grows at ever increasing pace in the West. Once a near majority is achieved, that future generation of muslims will simply revoke any changes and return to the traditions of the unchanging and unchangeable koran ie the "canonical texts" as Hugh puts it. They will even praise this generation of muslims for having done what was necessary to protect islam.

Islamic ideologues take the long view - in several decades or more. It is only right that we as well consider options keeping in mind islam's long-term goals.

Separation from islam and muslims is the only answer. Such a course will give ample time for muslims to reflect on the failure of their societies, while the the population swells to an extent that it cannot be fed.

I see no reason why we should be blown up, murdered, assaulted, freedoms that we have taken for granted, diminished or devalued etc, just to give muslims the chance to reform. Besides, it will not happen unless they have an incentive to do so.

Use the above argument whenever you think it necessary. I have found it quite useful.

 
At November 15, 2005 1:30 AM, Blogger Fjordman said...

"If you find any use of posts I put up here and there, you are most welcome to use them in any form."


Thank you, I probably will :-)

 
At November 15, 2005 1:37 AM, Blogger Caroline said...

pd111 - I agree with your points and the unfortunate implication is that as horrific as the short-term violence by the jihadis may be, that violence is the west's saving grace and so what choice do we have but to hope for more of it?. If Islam takes over quietly and peacefully there will without a doubt be even more violence and suffering in the long run, only the screams will be silent. It will be like that famous painting The Scream by Munsch. Why oh why don't westerners understand this? And what in our culture has made people so short-sighted and selfish? Is this where affluence always leads? So that people have to start all over again from scratch like in the Myth of Sysiphus, forced to endlessly push the same damn boulder up the same damn hill?

 
At November 15, 2005 1:58 AM, Blogger PD111 said...

fjordman posted: How do we identify Islam's weak points, exploit them and try to regain our own strength? What is the future for Western civilization and Europe in particular in the 21st century?

Mark Steyn seems to have a pretty gloomy view of that - demography is the key in his opinion. I tend to agree.

Let us examine where we can attack islam.

1. Theology and Philosophy in islam - Islam really sucks when it comes to theology and philosophy. There is nothing in it. As it is empty philosophically, there is nothing to attack. So that approach is pointless.

2. Convert muslims away from islam - Works to an extent but is balanced out by converts to islam. Besides, we are giving no incentive for muslims to convert.

3. Limit demographic growth - Short of doctoring the water supply, I see no solution.

Islam's greatest jihadis in this war are in my view, muslim women. They are the vanguard of the demographic war. They are also its Achilles heel. Muslim men and muslim leaders know this, and go to great lengths to protect muslim women from outside influences. Hence the "honour killings". "Honour killings" are not about honour but about maintaining discipline in the ranks of the vanguard.

How do we get to this vanguard and subvert it. Difficult. Only Western women have general access to them. I'm though loth to suggest this, as it puts both parties in danger. Besides, the demographic growth rate is too large for subversion to work, given the time.

None of these really tackles the impending crisis when muslim populations reaches the so-called critical mass. Thus not many peaceful options left that can have an effect in the time that is left.

V.S. Naipual thinks that our civilisation's diffidence itself will be the reason why we will win. As an Indian by culture, he probably looks to Gandhi's example. Gandhi's diffident and non-confrontational approach worked with a civilised opponent such as Britain. I do not hold such views for this war and with this enemy. Naipaul's thesis also rests on the fact that Western civilisation has conquered all before it and that islam will go the same way. This assumes that islam is in confrontation with us to conquer and destroy us. Not really, what they wish to do is to take us over and thus claim that Western civilisation was just a precursor to islamic civilisation. A similar fate happened to other civilisations, Persia comes to mind, that did not understand the nature of the conflict. One can see this takeover happening right before our eyes. No outright conflict, just a steady encroachment.

Laurence Auster, Hugh Fitzgerald and others are slowly coming around to hard options. The question remains what sort of hard options? And the other question - if European leaders have the courage and determination to adopt such options.

I'm strongly in favour of soft "hard options" such as separation. They are hard but mild in comparison to full scale war.

Muslim nations, left to their own devices, unable to export their excess population, an ever deteriorating infrastructure, increasing poverty and diminishing military power, will have no alternative but to reform islam. And even if they do not, they will not be a menace to the safety and security of the rest of the world, for the simple reason that they will not have access to harvest infidel lives.

Harsh as this is, it is the most humane way to progress. What frightens me is that we are moving towards a new world war that is quite unlike previous world wars. This world war will be a civil war i.e., a global civil war - the very worst type imaginable. It will leave no one untouched.

Separation is always better then a messy divorce, specially for the children (or our grandchildren). Yet what we are heading towards is a messy divorce, i.e., a civil war, and the winner will take all.

My immediate thoughts. Look forward to responeses.

DP111

 
At November 15, 2005 2:08 AM, Blogger PD111 said...

caroline

Like your reference to "The Scream". It is apt. That painting is so terrified of what is happening in Holland, that it keeps running away.

 
At November 15, 2005 3:34 AM, Blogger Caroline said...

pd111 "1. Theology and Philosophy in islam - Islam really sucks when it comes to theology and philosophy. There is nothing in it. As it is empty philosophically, there is nothing to attack. So that approach is pointless."

I disagree strongly there. There is nothing to attack? It's no accident that the blaspheny laws in Islam are so severe. Muhammad is the foundation upon which the house of cards rests. Ali Sina knows this which is why his $50,ooo challenge is aimed at the fundamental character of Muhammad. There are millions and millions of people - Muslims included - who still have no clue who Muhammad was or the deeds he comitted. The advantage of keeping up the pressure here to spread the message far and wide is that it is something that every single person can do on an individual level.

For the faint of heart, the approach needn't be confrontational. It could look something like this (at every available opportunity):

"What do I think about the war on terror? Well, I do think that Islam needs to be reformed but I have some serious reservations about the extent to which that is possible because Muhammad is considered the perfect man and ultimate role model for Muslims and the problem is that he himself had people assassinated and he ordered the beheading of hundreds of Jews and he financed his exploits by robbing caravans and he took slaves and he said that "war is deceit" So, you know, it's hard to be optimistic."

That ought to get the attention of the uninformed, but in a way that should prevent "shooting the messenger." We don't actually have much control as individuals over the rest of it, but we do as individuals, have the power to do this one thing. Expose the truth about Muhammad.

Did you ever see the Kevin Spacey movie "Pay it Forward"? It's about a kid who sets out to change the world for the better and he does it by doing something good for 3 people and then asking each of them to "Pay it Forward" to 3 other people, calculating that this would grow exponentially.

Most westerners will grasp pretty quickly the deal about Muhammad (and will then equally grasp the threat). The most we can hope for from Muslims may be to plant a seed of doubt that may grow over time. Counter-Da'wa..

 
At November 15, 2005 7:45 AM, Blogger Ethnocentrist said...

There will be war, soon, but the continent as a whole won't buckle under. Even though Europe, or at least parts of it, will manage to linger on, it will no longer be a global force of any significance. The USA is in a stronger position, and will be salvaged in part because of witnessing the example of European implosion. - Fjordman

Separation from islam and muslims is the only answer. Such a course will give ample time for muslims to reflect on the failure of their societies, while the the population swells to an extent that it cannot be fed. - DP111


With all due respect, I do not see it Fjordman's way. True, there probably will be war and the reason for this is that the left continues to latch onto its archaic untenable ideology. Were it not for that, mass deportations would do the trick and right quick. As a matter of fact, that needs to start happening now and not only for illegals or criminals. All Muslims, or for the humanitarians in the crowd, nearly all should be deported to their rightful homes. That is the only way Europe will be saved, relatively unscathed. Unfortunately, as we see on this blog and other places around the net, European man does not have the stomach for this YET.

So the next question is what will happen when war does break out? Well, war is war ladies and gentlemen. It will not be fought with "kid gloves" in order we do not hurt anyone. True, damage will be done, though if Europe does not fight with all its muster, then Europe does deserve to be annihilated. I have faith that European man has not lost the will to survive and I have faith that once the realization is upon European man, war will not take very long to rid Europe of this plague that has fallen upon her. I absolutely mean this. We are "fighting" this war now on the net, with words, with hand wringing, with guilt, with concern about our collective conscious, with all sorts or proverbial weights around our necks and hands tied behind our backs. Please! This is absurd. When the dogs of war are unleashed, Europe will be salvaged and Europeans will do whatever is necessary to survive. Let's not look at the utter catastrophe that is Iraq. That is an abysmal failure due to the above restrictions placed upon the US troops and the politically correct war that is being fought.

As for the US, I think Fjordman gives it way too much credit that it will somehow survive from learning anything. The country itself is being invaded and with a covert, yet hostile ethny that has visions of conquest. Millions flood in every single year. I think the US is more a civilization in decline as opposed to Europe. This decline will wreak havoc on the country and its people. Civil war will most likely break out at some point in the future for several reasons. The reason all is well now is due to a faux prosperity. With all levels of jobs being exported even as I type this, that prosperity will cease and trouble will begin. I view this to be more inevitable than a near fatal wounding of Europe.

As for DP111, the only thing I disagree with him about the above is this population swelling notion. The populations swell due to white largesse and nothing more. If there is no "humanitarian" aid which of course we give like God damn idiots, then there will be no population growth and no swelling. People need to realize that this is no game. Talking will not solve this. Hiding ones head under the pillow won't help. Holding hands won't do it either. Very hard and very unpleasant decisions will need to be made. The west has become disgustingly soft due to so many decades of "peace" (LOL) and prosperity. Well, all good things do come to and end, don't they?

 
At November 15, 2005 8:35 AM, Blogger Mike H. said...

Ethnocentrist, if you will notice, laws are being changed at the state and local level that will affect the future. Florida has just made it legal to defend ones property. There are other states that require extraordinary conditions in order to plead defense of ones home. But concealed carry is coming back on line in a number of states.

 
At November 15, 2005 12:44 PM, Blogger PD111 said...

Caroline

re: Theology and philosophy

Apostasy in islam and the laws regarding it, I view as components of sharia ie laws of islam. I for one could not detect any philosophical or theological essays in islam to compare with other religions.

Islam is a way of life governed by a set of rules and examples from Mohammed's life, thats it.

Apostasy laws in islam are a weak point of islam. In many debates with muslims in JW/DW watch and elsewhere, I have used this point quite often, particularly when they are boasting that islam is the fastest growing religion in the West.

Abdul, I know people who have turned away from islam and become Christians. What came as a shock to me is when our vicar told me they could not reveal their identity for fear of being murdered, as islam requires. Tell me Abdul, is this true? I cannot believe that this is happening anywhere, leave alone in Britain.Is murdering a person who leaves islam, sanctioned by islam? No this surely cannot be.

That is the last I hear of them.

 
At November 15, 2005 6:16 PM, Blogger Hepzi said...

Fjordman, I have lurked for many moons but never commented.

WRT your request for weak points, etc:

1. Islam is vulnerable beacuse it emphasizes rote religious education to the detriment of honest scientific inquiry. I think the West should severely constrict the access it gives to education and technology to Islamicists. Similarly, we should really think through our continued reliance on tech workers from Pakistan, etc. We need to think through the "terms of engagement" for education and employment within the US and Europe--from a national defense standpoint. (This is tricky because the Muslims could ultimately break off and develop technological and eonomic strength on their own--but would that be a good thing perhaps?)

2. Many muslim countries have never had to learn to work and manufacture--for the most part--because they have had the luxury of easy oil money. This is a huge vulnerability. We should immediately fund research to pursue alternatives to oil--hydrogen whatever.

3. Islam ignores and in fact abuses, its single largest asset: women.

4. Muslim youth LIKE Western pop culture. They hate the stupid religious police. While we should probably clean up the content a bit, we should nevertheless CRANK UP THE VOLUME on good music, movies and television shows. Its hard to look through a window at people laughing and having fun at a party without wanting to join them....

5. Muslims, if anything, seem to be sentimental when it comes to family. They love kids. Remember the outrage over the Iraqi bombing outside a school, and even the recent Jordanian wedding bombing? We should take counter-offensive propaganda to advertise the PERSONAL aspects of the Islamofascists violence, and include a fair measure of info on the Muslim casualties.

6. Pray. I grew up in India, and have firsthand seen the response to conversion from Islam: usually murder. This religion is not tolerant. We need to pray that other religions gain traction against this ideology. Only the hand of God can take this murderous response and turn it too the positive.

Fjordman, thank you for your efforts on the blog. I am so sorry that you will be departing the blogosphere.

 
At December 16, 2005 4:29 PM, Blogger helloworld said...

I am writing this from the usa. On December 18th I am doing an awareness campaign of the plight of the Menghowar family concerning the hostage taking of Reena Reni and Ashwariya since October 18th 200r. They have been kept confined in a Madrassah called TALEEM UL QURAN in Karachi.

As part of the hostage process these three girls where first abducted during the monthe of Ramzan where they the mughal slaves which is the islamic population of Pakistan 99% are taught that the non Muslim Hindu indigenous population are KUFIRS , where taken to a large , Binnori Mosque, funded by Saudi and even by us in the USA under the educational grants. Here the grand mufti made the girls send stamp certificates to the parents Sanno and Champa that they had become islamic and found no need to stay with their hindu parents.

Both Paksitan Goverment which gets large funding from us in the USA IN THE NAME OF HELPING US FIGHT THE WAR ON TERRORISM, and its islamic court have prevented the parents access to the girls who have been talibanized and kept in burqa.

I have repeatedly sent letters to the author of the story in Dawn ,to Paksitan HRC , however have got no response in obtaining the addresses telephone number and copies fo the documents of the addresses of the police station.

There has been a total lack of co-operation, and constant news block by th Paksitan embassy.

I have tried to research the names and places of the midrassah and got some phone numbers which need to be verified.

On December 18th I am distributing saffron arm bands as the hindus where made to wear black burqs and saffron arm bands where tied to identify them

 
At December 16, 2005 4:30 PM, Blogger helloworld said...

am writing this from the usa. On December 18th I am doing an awareness campaign of the plight of the Menghowar family concerning the hostage taking of Reena Reni and Ashwariya since October 18th 200r. They have been kept confined in a Madrassah called TALEEM UL QURAN in Karachi.

As part of the hostage process these three girls where first abducted during the monthe of Ramzan where they the mughal slaves which is the islamic population of Pakistan 99% are taught that the non Muslim Hindu indigenous population are KUFIRS , where taken to a large , Binnori Mosque, funded by Saudi and even by us in the USA under the educational grants. Here the grand mufti made the girls send stamp certificates to the parents Sanno and Champa that they had become islamic and found no need to stay with their hindu parents.

Both Paksitan Goverment which gets large funding from us in the USA IN THE NAME OF HELPING US FIGHT THE WAR ON TERRORISM, and its islamic court have prevented the parents access to the girls who have been talibanized and kept in burqa.

I have repeatedly sent letters to the author of the story in Dawn ,to Paksitan HRC , however have got no response in obtaining the addresses telephone number and copies fo the documents of the addresses of the police station.

There has been a total lack of co-operation, and constant news block by th Paksitan embassy.

I have tried to research the names and places of the midrassah and got some phone numbers which need to be verified.

On December 18th I am distributing saffron arm bands as the hindus where made to wear black burqs and saffron arm bands where tied to identify them

 

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