Sunday, July 24, 2005

The Norwegian Government - Covering Up Immigrant Rapes

Note: Update to this post here: Rape: Nothing to do with Islam?

I've touched upon this subject several times here, and I will continue doing so until the problem has been acknowledged and dealt with. I got inspiration to write another post about this after reading once again about the horrific gang rapes by Muslim immigrants of Australian girls in Sydney, this time brought up by LittleGreenFootballs:

Sydney's Gang Rape Trial

They are probably the most violent, prolific gang rapists Sydney has known, with as many as 18 young victims. But until now the extent of the horrific crimes of four brothers from Pakistan has been kept secret. Yesterday, more than three years after they went on a six-month rampage, luring girls as young as 13 to their home in Ashfield to rape them, suppression orders forbidding publication of their trial details were lifted. The brothers, who came to Australia from Pakistan around 2000, had claimed in the face of damning DNA evidence that they were the victims of an anti-Muslim conspiracy. The eldest brother feigned mental illness, they sacked numerous lawyers and aborted trials to ensure delays as they tried to wear down the victims who had agreed to testify. The rapes of at least eight girls took place mostly in the brothers’ Ashfield home between January and July 2002. The girls were invited to a “party”, but would arrive at the house, which was strewn with rubbish and plastered with posters of semi-naked girls, to find no other females there. Some victims were repeatedly raped at knifepoint and told they would be killed if they went to police. The brothers videotaped their rapes, and the tapes show another dozen possible victims. The police have not been able to find them all and some did not want to come forward.


Here are statistics published by the police in Oslo, Norway, September 2001:

Oslo rape statistics shock

Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.The study is the first where the crime statistics have been analyzed according to ethnic origin. Rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year. Police Inspector Gunnar Larsen of Oslo's Vice, Robbery and Violent crime division says the statistics are surprising - the rising number of rape cases and the link to ethnic background are both clear trends. But Larsen does not want to speculate on the reasons behind the worrying developments. While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo's population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases, with 20 percent being women of foreign background.

There is every reason to believe that the numbers were real, as Denmark published almost identical statistics at the same time:

Criminologist: immigrants are rape champions

If one leading expert is to be believed, the sharp rise in the number of rapes in this over the last 5 years is largely attributable to a group of unemployed and alienated immigrants. 'Over the last 5-10 years there has an increasing tendency to marginalise and alienate immigrants,' says Professor Flemming Balvig, a criminologist at Copenhagen University. 'As a result, many second generation immigrants have reacted against this through various types of criminal activity, including rape.'

Muslim rape concern


Alarmed at last week's police statistics, which revealed that in 68% of all rapes committed this year the perpetrator was from an ethnic minority, leading Muslim organisations have now formed an alliance to fight the ever-growing problem of young second and third-generation immigrants involved in rape cases against young Danish girls.

The situation in Sweden is probably even worse, but statistics have never been made public.

The numbers published in September 2001 were discussed in at least to out of Norway's three largest newspapers: Aftenposten and Dagbladet. A leading member of the Liberal Party (Venstre), Odd Einar Dørum, demanded all the numbers be put on the table: "A scumbag is a scumbag, regardless of skin color".

Four years later, Dørum is Minister of Justice, and nobody has seen these statistics since 2001. The number of rape charges in Oslo have continued to rise, reaching record levels in 2004. There is ample evidence of brutal gang rapes, something that used to be rare in Scandinavia, being committed by immigrants against native girls. For instance, 21st of July, three men were charged with gang raping a 15-year-old Norwegian girl, who was dragged into a car while waiting for a bus at the bus station in the town of Fredrikstad. All the men were of "foreign origin". Such cases have become almost routine. The only possible explanation for why we are no longer presented statistics showing the percentage of immigrants involved in this is that the government is covering it up. Usually, this would have made the media demand that the Minister of Justice should resign. This has not happened, although I know several journalists have been reading the posts I have made about this topic, both in English and in Norwegian. To make matters worse, while Norwegian women are increasingly unsafe in their own capital, we hear calls for even more immigration, and 85 % of our MPs pass a law saying that we are guilty of discriminating against immigrants until proven otherwise.

We have national elections on the 12th of September. And right now, I'm embarrassed to come from this nation.

42 Comments:

At July 24, 2005 1:36 PM, Blogger FOS said...

The reason why new gang rape laws were enforced in Australia:

Teen gang rapist gets 32 years' jail

By Sarah Crichton
October 11 2002

Mohammed Skaf slouched in the dock with the harmless look of a teenager loitering at any suburban shopping centre. Yet, Sydney's District Court heard yesterday, the puny 165 centimetre teen was in fact a violent, callous individual capable of unbelievable arrogance, "the instigator, the lure, or the bait", for two of Sydney's notorious August 2000 gang rapes.
"Mohammed Skaf ... is a vicious, cowardly bully, arrogant and a liar - as well as being a rapist," began Judge Michael Finnane, before sentencing the 19-year-old to a maximum of 32 years' jail, to be served in an adult prison.
He will be eligible for parole on January 2, 2021 - making his minimum term exactly half that of his elder brother, Bilal, the gang ringleader.
Noting the younger Skaf's similar lack of remorse, Judge Finnane said: "It is hard to believe that young men brought up in modern Australia could behave so much like wild animals."
He rejected a submission that Skaf be allowed to serve time in a juvenile justice centre until 21.
His lawyer, Richard Jankowski, had argued that extra restrictions were likely to be imposed on Skaf for his protection in an adult jail. Initial detention at a juvenile centre, he said, would give Skaf one opportunity to develop vocational skills for his eventual release into the community. It would also enable him to undertake a weights program "to give himself an even chance" in adult jail.
Skaf, whose identity was suppressed until yesterday because of his age at the time the crimes were committed, was the teenager who, with four others, lured an 18-year-old from a train at Bankstown on August 30, 2000.
Later, as the first of 14 to rape her that day and having stolen her mobile phone, he told her: "You won't get your phone back until you f--- me." He then thrust her face-first into a toilet block wall and declared: "I'm going to f--- you Leb-style."
The prosecutor, Margaret Cunneen, said Skaf was "so brazen, so arrogant, so unmoved" by the miserable plight into which he had lured the woman that he returned near the end of the six-hour ordeal - in which she was raped 25 times - to sexually assault her again.
Speaking outside court yesterday, the victim said of Skaf's sentence: "He got what he deserved. If it hadn't been for him I wouldn't have been raped that day."
Judge Finnane said that while plainly influenced by his brother, Bilal - 20 months his senior and with whom he was close - Mohammed Skaf nonetheless played a leadership role in that attack and one 18 days earlier.
On August 12 he had gone to the home of a 16-year-old girl he had befriended six months earlier. On the pretence of taking her on a drive to the city, he abused the trust she and her mother had placed in him as a decent young man who had always been polite and well-mannered, and lured her instead to Greenacre's Gosling Park.
With arrangements already in place - via almost constant mobile phone contact with his brother - the younger Skaf adopted various ruses to calm her nerves and keep her at the park until his brother and 10 others arrived.
Then he left, abandoning her as his elder brother grabbed her by the hair and, calling "Yallah [let's go] boys", with the others dragged her across the park. They then stripped her, assaulted her and held her down as she was raped by the elder Skaf and another man.
During the attack she had a gun pointed at her. She managed to escape but was hunted down at a nearby telephone box. Again the gun was pointed at her and she was ordered into a vehicle before a stranger appeared, forcing the gang to flee.
For aiding and abetting this attack, the younger Skaf was sentenced to a maximum of 15 years, with a non-parole period of nine years.
Two reports tendered in court yesterday indicate his ongoing contempt for his victims and women, particularly female authority figures. He had made sexually inappropriate remarks to female staff at the Kariong juvenile facility and continued to blame the victims for initially agreeing to go with him.
"[They] were not good either, since they came out with us as soon as I asked them," he told one officer.
Ms Cunneen said Skaf represented "a grievous long-term danger to the community".
This story was found at: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/10/1034222543718.html

 
At July 24, 2005 1:39 PM, Blogger FOS said...

Gang rape ringleader to escape life term

October 16, 2004

A District Court judge said he was "in a complete quandary" as to the jail term he should impose upon a gang rapist, who was found guilty last month under new gang rape laws which carry a maximum of life.

Judge Michael Finnane said gang raping a 16-year-old "virgin with no sexual experience", and not the use of a knife to intimidate her, was what made the crime "worse" - but the ringleader would not get a life sentence.

In a sentencing hearing yesterday, the judge said the assault "was not in the same category" as the series of planned, "military-style precision" assaults by a gang led by Bilal Skaf, whom he sent to jail for 55 years in 2002.

"Those particular people were all involved in an organised venture with repeated offences ... None of them were on drugs, none of them were under the influence of alcohol."

When the Crown pointed out that the accused, John Hill, threatened to poke the girl's eyes out with a knife if she screamed, Judge Finnane said weapons were used in "very many of these cases".

"What it is that makes this worse than the norm is this girl is just torn about. That's what makes it worse ... because she's a 16-year-old virgin with no sexual experience whatsoever ... and this girl's very small [in stature] ... that's what makes it worse."

Hill, 33, and his nephews, Steven and Jamie (all court-ordered pseudonyms), and another teenager, Christopher Bonham, broke into a Newington unit just after midnight on July 17 last year. They tied up the girl's parents while Hill, with Bonham and Steven, both 18, sexually assaulted her so brutally she spent three days in hospital.

Bonham was sentenced by Judge Ronald Solomon on August 30 to 15 years' jail. In a separate case in April, in the first sentencing under the new gang rape laws, MSK, MAK, MRK and MMK received between 10 and 22 years' jail.

Yesterday, John Stratton, SC, for the defence, said Hill had been on a drug "which can cause bizarre behaviour and, indeed, psychotic behaviour". He said "a relatively lengthy period" of jail would be appropriate but placed the crime at "less than the mid-range of seriousness".

The court heard Hill had a lengthy criminal record and was facing four gang rape charges in another assault. He will be sentenced on November 26.

Steven and Jamie, who pleaded guilty, are to be sentenced on December 17 and November 22.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/10/15/1097784051780.html

 
At July 24, 2005 1:58 PM, Blogger FOS said...

Gang rapist named

By Cindy Wockner
07sep02

FINALLY, today the true identity of the leader of the gang rapists who struck terror at the heart of western Sydney can be revealed.

Bilal Skaf, described in court as "a menace to any civilised society" and a "liar and coward", was recently jailed for a maximum 55 years for his role in three separate gang rapes on four young victims, 20 days apart.
Today The Daily Telegraph also exposes three of Skaf's evil fellow rapists.
Skaf is 20 years old and, before he was arrested, lived at home with his parents and three younger siblings and was engaged to be married.
So far no explanation has been revealed for just why he chose to lead a gang of young friends in a vicious and well-co-ordinated series of gang rapes. He and his family maintain his innocence and he has lodged an appeal.
But a series of graphic mobile telephone text messages, downloaded from his personal phone after his arrest, provide yet more insight into his character.
With his unmasking, The Daily Telegraph can reveal the vile tone of those messages.
Most are too lewd to print in full, but one of the milder ones read: "When you are feeling down ... bash a Christian or Catholic and lift up".
Another warned an acquaintance: "... if you dreamt of someone else I would punch you in the head".
His characteristic arrogance, on display often in the courtroom, was no more evident than the day detectives from Strike Force Sayda were searching his home.
Skaf was not there but telephoned. When the call was answered by a detective, Skaf scoffed: "I'd just like to wish you all the best with your investigation."
But detectives didn't need luck on this one.
The painstaking work of making the links between the gang and analysing mobile phone records proved Skaf's involvement in the rapes.
In all the attacks, mobile phones were the weapon of choice and also the downfall of these young men who had made constant calls to each other advising of the whereabouts of the latest victim.
Another item found by police during the raid on the home was a photograph of Skaf, reclining on the lounge with a rifle and pistol. Neither weapon was ever located although a silver replica pistol was found during one search.
As well, he had licences in several false names, including Adam "Gihad" Newlan and Luke Mangan.
Skaf was born in Australia. His parents migrated from Lebanon in the 1970s. He left school at 14 and has worked as a spray painter and with StateRail.
A former school teacher told The Daily Telegraph that even in his school years he was a leader of the group.
"He had no fear. Bilal always stood out as the main man. You could see from a young age he was pretty much a leader. He had no fear," the teacher said.
Until his gang rape convictions, Skaf had a criminal record for larceny, shoplifting and driving matters.
Yesterday his father Moustafa and family were angered by the decision to reveal his identity and stood by his innocence, as did his fiancee.
Yesterday's decision to name Skaf and three of his co-perpetrators came after forceful submissions to the court by Crown Prosecutor Margaret Cunneen.
Ms Cunneen said there were at least another five gang rapists which had not been identified.
"The Australian Lebanese community deserves to have the spotlight drawn away from it and on to the individual perpetrators. Not naming the individuals places a burden on the entire Lebanese community ... the vast majority of whom are law-abiding citizens," she said.
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,5050112%255E421,00.html

 
At July 24, 2005 2:00 PM, Blogger FOS said...

Gang rapists exposed and jailed

By Cindy Wockner
07sep02

BROTHERS Mohammed and Mahmoud Sanoussi and their friend Tayyab Sheikh were part of the "brutal gang of rapists" who terrorised young women in Sydney in August, 2000.

Yesterday they were all jailed for their crimes and the veil of anonymity protecting their identities was lifted.
"In my opinion these cases concern one of the greatest outrages, in criminal terms, that has been perpetrated on the community in Sydney . . . militarily organised gang rape involving 14 young men," Judge Michael Finnane said.
He had initially refused to lift the suppression orders, but after hearing submissions from Crown Prosecutor Margaret Cunneen, he reversed the order.
"The interests of justice require that they be named . . . persons involved in gangs of this type must know that their activities will be made public and they will be named," Judge Finnane said.
The elder Sanoussi brother, Mohammed, now 18, had pleaded guilty to his role in two gang rapes on three young victims, committed 20 days apart, including the August 10 gang rape of two teenagers and an attack on August 30.
Mahmoud, now 17, pleaded guilty to his role in the August 30 gang rape of an 18-year-old woman. He was involved in the first phase of her six-hour ordeal – at a Bankstown public toilet block as was his brother.
Tayyab Sheikh, now 18, was found guilty by a jury of his role in the August 30 rape.
In sentencing Mohammed Sanoussi to a maximum 21 years and three months jail, with a minimum term of 6½_ years, Judge Finnane noted it was sad that he, who had been bullied as a schoolboy, had become the bully.
"It is said that [he], himself the target of bullies throughout his life, should choose to engage in gang rape, which is a particularly vicious and cruel form of bullying," Judge Finnane said.
He was bullied because he was born without fingers on his right hand.
Judge Finnane recounted that Mohammed Sanoussi, had told the young victim, C, when he entered that toilet block to orally rape her: "It's my right" and afterwards asked her "Did you have a good time?". When she shook her head, he said: "That's surprising, I'm supposed to be the best."
His brother, who was only involved in the rape of C, received a maximum sentence of 11 years and three months, with a minimum term of 6½years.
Both brothers received discounted sentences due to their guilty pleas and remorse.
Tayyab Sheikh was the fourth male to rape C in the Bankstown toilet block, telling her: "You can do it the hard way or the easy way".
His claim, that he had not raped her but gone into the toilet with her so as not be a "rock job" or embarrassment in front of his mates, was absurd, Judge Finnane said, especially in light of the "black and white evidence".
Sheikh had shown no remorse, no contrition and did not accept he was guilty of anything. One report said he had a medium to high risk of re-offending. He was sentenced to a maximum 15 years, with a minimum of nine years.
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,5051256%255E421,00.html

 
At July 24, 2005 3:23 PM, Blogger Thomas Bolding Hansen said...

Check this out, do you really need low skilled labour that much ?

And where would you get it from ? North Africa ?

Link is in Danish:

http://www.polemiken.net/

?p=1174


Summary: Norwegian Foreign ministry leader claims Norway need immigrants to fill holes in the low skilled labour force. A politician from Denmark, probably with a tint of irony, suggest that they cooperate with Denmark then, since we got excess of such labour force.

 
At July 24, 2005 4:00 PM, Blogger Laurel said...

Thomas,
It's the same thing the US Gov't tells us about our illegals. They fill the jobs we won't do. I'm sorry I don't believe there are that many McDonalds, nanny jobs, toilets to scrub that warrants about 3 million a year.

 
At July 24, 2005 5:22 PM, Blogger Dick Onander said...

Fjordman,

Excellent blogs! You are focusing on many of the right issues. I just wanted to add that young Muslim men rape Scandinavian women not because Scandinavian women put themselves out, but because these girls are dhimmis in the eyes of Muslims.

Put simply: it is OK to rape a Scandinavian girl, but not a Muslim girl. The Scandinavian girl does not have full value as a human being, because she is not a Muslim.

This is a plain, yet brutal fact that Scandinavian politicians are appallingly unwilling to face. Until they do, they will have to endure the brutal abuse of their daughters at the hands of Muslim thugs running totally rampant.

The situation may be stabilizing in Denmark, thanks to Dansk Folkeparti. I don't know about Norway, but it certainly will NOT get better in Sweden. Quite the contrary.

 
At July 24, 2005 6:19 PM, Blogger bordergal said...

Why doesn't Scandanavia import Hindus from India, or start reaching out to Christian Hispanics in North America? Or Chinese/Vietnamese workers, and Phillipinos, or Christian Africans?

Their cultures and beliefs are much more compatible with yours then Islamic cultures (However, the caveat remains that there has to be an assimilation program, a strong one).

There ARE decent options to Muslim immigration. It sounds to me like they are more much trouble then they are worth. Change your worker outreach to reflect this.

 
At July 24, 2005 6:32 PM, Blogger bordergal said...

The more I think about this, the more I think that workers from the Phillipines are a wonderful idea.

It would deprive the Saudis of their greatest source of abused house slaves (spit), stop the Muslim invasion of Scandanavia, and provide employment to a warm and wonderful (although poor) people-all with a simple policy change.

Three for one!

 
At July 24, 2005 6:43 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Bordergal,

so we Europeans have already put our head into the noose and in addition you suggest us to thrust a dagger into our chest to assure our society will die.

With all respect this the way I understood your message.

 
At July 24, 2005 7:12 PM, Blogger bordergal said...

Kledo-
Not my intent. You CAN approach the problem by keeping your population stable, rather then allowing it to decline. If you don't have enough children for replacement, you are putting your society at risk. Demographics can be changed in your favor...

You also don't have to offer permanent residence to foreign workers. If you don't have enough native born Europeans, allow foreign workers from SAFE societies to come for a certain period of time, save up money, and return to their homeland in better financial shape then they left. The foreign workers would be able to invest in their own less developed countries with their savings, so everyone would win. That's the second option.

 
At July 24, 2005 7:23 PM, Blogger bordergal said...

BTW, isn't the unemployment rate in Europe relatively high?
If so, why are outside workers even needed?

 
At July 24, 2005 7:53 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Bordergal :),

of course I know, no offense.

If you don't have enough children for replacement, you are putting your society at risk.

This is I believe some sort of suburban legend spreaded around by advocates of immigration (bussiness, do-gooders etc.). Declining population is no problem - when you are able to compensate missing workforce by growing productivity. But of course it depends on how much your population is declining. So you need slight decline which is by the way good for enviroment.

You also don't have to offer permanent residence to foreign workers. If you don't have enough native born Europeans, allow foreign workers from SAFE societies to come for a certain period of time, save up money, and return to their homeland in better financial shape then they left. The foreign workers would be able to invest in their own less developed countries with their savings, so everyone would win. That's the second option.

The problem is that it works only in theory. In reality you suffer from a wide range of "collateral" damages. Muslim extremism is one, California turning into Mexifornia another. You are opening Pandora box.

BTW, isn't the unemployment rate in Europe relatively high?
If so, why are outside workers even needed?


Yes, it is. I can illustrate it for example on Germany:

total population is declining,
available labor force (people fit to work) is declining,
unemployment is growing.

So you can see the absurdity of our situation.

 
At July 24, 2005 10:09 PM, Blogger CH said...

bordergal:"isn't the unemployment rate in Europe relatively high? If so, why are outside workers even needed?"

People don't like to work anymore.. Why work when welfare is free and easy..

 
At July 24, 2005 10:36 PM, Blogger erp said...

ch is right. Turning people into useless slovens is easy. Give them just enough to get by without effort and that's exactly what they will do. The next generation, knowing no other way, will continue that life.

The suggestion to bring in alien workers from Latin America or the Philippines is a very good one. Our Hispanic workers, whether legal or illegal, are family oriented, hard workers and honest. They want to become Americans and I for one, say we should welcome them.

Muslims on the other hand have self-selected for violence and brutality. Let the oil rich countries spread the wealth around and hire their own co-religionaists to work for them.

 
At July 24, 2005 11:23 PM, Blogger PD111 said...

bordergal posted: However, the caveat remains that there has to be an assimilation program, a strong one

Interesting point. Hindus, Chinese, Latin Americans, or for that matter anyone but muslims, do not require assimilation programs, and thus funding for them dies.

There is a strong bureacratic desire to keep such programs running, as well all the other programs, that have to be run for the benefit of socially unsuited muslims.

 
At July 24, 2005 11:34 PM, Blogger Fjordman said...

"There is a strong bureacratic desire to keep such programs running"

I like to think of it as the "multicultural industry".

 
At July 25, 2005 12:15 AM, Blogger Kledo said...

With respect to the fact that the European unemployment is growing and the most prosperous country like Denmark practices "fast closed border" policy I find suggestions to increase immigration from other parts of the world interesting.

Immigration from ideological reasons?

Immigration to prove we are not racists?

Or whats the logic behind those suggestions?

Looking forward to read answers.

 
At July 25, 2005 12:44 AM, Blogger bordergal said...

I've heard that the new immigrants are needed to support extensive social programs for the elderly. True, not?

That may be why immigration is continuing.

There is also the globalist movement, that supports a seamless world free of troublesome little items like national identity or loyalty. Those behind the original EU idea, possibly?

Mexifornia is the result of illegal immigration, not legal. It's too easy for someone to hop over the border from Mexico and find a job. Hopefully, that will change with the new interest in immigration reform.

But I understand what you mean about it being an issue that people on the ground are concerned with, while those at the top ignore it. Commerce without morality is the reason for the support of the business and political class in the US for immigration.

 
At July 25, 2005 12:44 AM, Blogger erp said...

From what I can gather, immigrants aren't being solicited for altruistic purposes, but to do the jobs that citizens don't want to do.

Since it's a buyer's market, why not hire people who have a proven track record for being hardworking, family oriented and honest rather than those who have a proven track record as rapists, suicide bombers and violent killers.

Now. That's a tough choice.

Duh?

 
At July 25, 2005 1:10 AM, Blogger Runnymede1215 said...

Lower taxes so people can raise families with less work or by hiring their own nannies would result in people making babies again.

A new merit based immigration policy with immigrants treated as on a job interview, "Well, how can you contribute to our society?"

FOMI

 
At July 25, 2005 1:20 AM, Blogger Zach said...

If young Muslims immigrants are being brought in to support pensions, that would depend on them making a substantial, net positive economic contribution to society. As I understand the situation however, many (most?) are not making a great deal of economic progress, and when combined with welfare benefits, and especially welfare benefits to their large families, it is not clear that they have been a positive investment. Possibly someone who lives in Europe can better flesh out wither this is true or false.

As for the esteemed "Hispanic workers" which Erp suggests, I would have to respectfully disagree with that bit of feel-goodism.

Erp suggests that they are "hardworking", "family oriented", and "honest".

Ok, lets go thought that list one by one.

* Hardworking
Hardworking should not be confused with desperation, and specifically being uneducated and desperate. Many do work jobs which are physically hard, true. But generally speaking they are not hardworking in the sense of the protestant work ethic; the hardworking stops the minute the clock does. Look at the care they take of their neighborhoods.

* Family Oriented
They certainly have family values, after a sort. However, these are often not the same as what we would consider family values. For example, Mexico is a country where the age of consent is 12 years old, and where in many parts of the country rape tends to go unreported and unpunished. There is also the tendencies towards wife beating, alcoholism, etc.

* Honest
Seriously, nobody can make this claim with a straight face. South of the border, bribery is everywhere, and it does not stop when they move north.

The reality of the situation is that those of us in Europe and America need to stop playing into the multiculturalists hands and straight up challenge the assumption that first world countries somehow need floods of third world'ers to sustain ourselves. Part of the benefit of living in a rich country is knowing that even if you, or your child, were not bless with great brains or education, you can still make a decent living working at a less skilled job.

 
At July 25, 2005 5:28 AM, Blogger erp said...

Jeepers. You people know it all. Hispanics who come here to work are in fact just what I said they are. Are they desperate, of course. No matter how bad the neighborhoods you talk about are, they're a lot better than where they came from. Are their manners coarse and not as refined as a Wall Street lawyer. Yes. The difference between them and Muslims is they can and want to learn, and they want a better life for their kids.

Naive people want Muslims to worry about pension plans??? They are ignorant superstitious people still in the 12th century. They're not concerned with the future. You still want to talk, talk, talk. You want to hold job interviews. It's nuts.

Sorry. There's no hope. I do really think that Europe is a goner and that we better just worry about ourselves. No sense wasting any more money or resources on you.

 
At July 25, 2005 5:50 AM, Blogger bordergal said...

erp,
You need to look at the cost of those cheap mexican migrants, for health care, education, and incarcernation. I think illegal services cost the US some 65 billion per year.
Life for people near the border is hell because of the lawlessness. We just had a ten year old in a local park raped by two illegals. We had an illegal alien child molester working as a volunteer at a local school. It's hard to track all the data, because the press hides the information. Have you read any of the websites for the Aztlan folks? They are in the process of trying to retake the southwest through sheer overwhelming immigration. Nope, Mexico is doing us no favors.

Also, Mexico is dysfunctional because of its people, not because of lack of resources.

 
At July 25, 2005 7:07 AM, Blogger Zach said...

"Are they desperate, of course. No matter how bad the neighborhoods you talk about are, they're a lot better than where they came from. Are their manners coarse and not as refined as a Wall Street lawyer. Yes. The difference between them and Muslims is they can and want to learn, and they want a better life for their kids."

Erp, with all due respect, none of that is relevant. I know coming to America, a first world country, is great for them. I really don't care though; I only have one question fundamentally: how would this ever benefit me? And the answer is that it is very much a net negative. I just want to be left alone in my own country--a very simple request.

 
At July 25, 2005 5:00 PM, Blogger Jason_Pappas said...

Successful immigration requires assimilation. That requires people who can assimilate (which rules out immigration from Islamic countries) and a proud culture that demands assimilation (that rules out the West as long as we have multi-culturalism.)

 
At July 25, 2005 6:08 PM, Blogger Kactuz said...

Some thoughts on immigration. The rules have changed. When massive immigration to the West started in the 1960/70s people were still thinking in 19th and early 20th century terms. People moved and cut ties with the old country and with their families left behind. You did not return, you had a hard time even communicating with the old country. You had to assimulate to survive. This was the "melting pot". (I have spent 5 weeks on a freighter immigrating, I know. I remember 30-40 day letters one-way.)

Times are different. People can immigrate and not integrate. People need not become part of a culture. Modern technology and modern "multicultural" theory facilitate and support the possibility of totally different cultures living side by side, in a way unheard of before. The old rules don't apply. An immigrant can eat his own food, work in his sub-culture, marry people brought in from his old country and even listen to hate speech by satellite from his favorite Imam in Arabia. The Welfare state will even support him if he chooses not to work, and he now has rights and respect he never even imagined. In theory it should work, except he has problems and he will not accept the values of other groups. He has to blame somebody, and its everybody but him. This is why conflict is inevitable. Muslims cannot accept Western values of tolerance and free speech and still be Muslims.

Any country accepting Muslim immigration is insane. The fact that politicians and PC educators support this false multiculturalism almosts makes me believe they actually want to destroy our society. I find that theory hard to believe, but...

John, Aka... Kactuz

 
At July 25, 2005 8:11 PM, Blogger Don Miguel said...

http://www.newnation.org/?

Sorry, but I just don't take the word of a site that places the quote "For a White minority in a colored world" under its title. Where there's an agenda, there is bias.

 
At July 25, 2005 10:38 PM, Blogger Ole said...

I live in California. The scary thing to me about the large influx of "Latinos" -and I know that this sounds racist, but how else can we solve problems unless we are not afraid to voice them-is that nowwhere in all of Latin America, from the Mexican border down to Tierra del Fuego, is there a stabilized government. I don't really want them coming up here to corrupt (any more than it is) my country.

 
At July 25, 2005 11:33 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Ole, your concerns are honest and justified.

 
At July 26, 2005 8:03 AM, Blogger ik said...

hopefully this thread is not yet dead.

The rapes are just the first stage

The SECOND stage is when they rule over some part of Europe (eg. Sverigesthan) then they will start kidnapping the "native" women and forcibly converting them and marrying them off - and this is if the girl is 'lucky' - otherwise they will be sold off into the slave markets of the middle east. You will find this "behaviour pattern" everywhere. This happens to Hindu women in Bangladesh. A Muslim woman in Bangladesh called Taslima Nasreen wrote a book about this called Lajja 'Shame' (http://waf.gn.apc.org/journal6p53.htm)
She had to run away to Sweden. The scandinavian countries could have utilized her as a Scandinavian version of Ayaan Hirsi Ali (I do not know if they did-I think this was a wasted opportunity)

The THIRD STAGE
In India during the Muslim invasions they found out that the Muslims would not leave the women alone even after they died - hence the (Rajputs) Hindus came up with a tradition called Jauhar/Johar. The men would go out of the fort/castle to do battle with the Muslims - When it was known that they were going to lose the Women would build a big bonfire / dress up in their finest and walk into the fire so that they would not fall into the hands of the Muslims.

http://www.palacesonwheels.com/chittaurgarh/chittaurgarh.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jauhar

 
At July 26, 2005 8:57 PM, Blogger Don Miguel said...

"nowwhere in all of Latin America, from the Mexican border down to Tierra del Fuego, is there a stabilized government."

Chile, Costa Rica and Mexico have stable governments. Corruption in Latin American countries varies based on culture and history. I've been to and/or lived in most of them and Mexico is by far the most corrupt. It is endemic, especially in government bureaucracies.

 
At July 27, 2005 3:35 PM, Blogger erp said...

Here's some facts to back up my contentions. Hispanic Americans Welcome

 
At July 27, 2005 10:20 PM, Blogger Zach said...

Erp, I want to show you the face of these "hardworking, family oriented, honest" aliens who are already living in the southeast US:

Here

Here

Do you want these people harassing your girlfriend/wife/daughter/sister when they drive by?

Read more at the excellent Old Foot Locker blog

 
At July 28, 2005 12:11 AM, Blogger Don Miguel said...

Give me a break! How do you know those guys are aliens? They're just as likely (if not more so) to be 3rd generation Mecha members. Mecha, immigrant "rights" groups and others of their ilk are the people you should be worried about.

 
At July 28, 2005 4:55 AM, Blogger Zach said...

Don, you are quite right that there is no knowing from looking at the photos if these individuals are indeed aliens.

I did not see any white or black workers standing there though. Perhaps third generation Mexican-Americans are genetically predisposed to standing on the corner en-masse waiting for work, but I doubt it. Still, if it is true that these are second or third generation "Latino-Americans" still doing day-labor, I am afraid you have made my point about the danger of mass immigration much more strongly than I could.

As for Mecha et al, I think you are right about them being much of the problem/danger, but at the same time they are just suppliers in a market-place of ideas. In a free society where there is a ideological demand for groups like these, they are going to grow. They are a product of creating a large underclass of the cheap labor which big business loves so much.

 
At July 28, 2005 8:48 PM, Blogger Don Miguel said...

Well, I thought they were part of a demonstration (hence, thinking it would consist of a dose of Mecha types). If they are just waiting on a corner for work, it is not much of an assumption to think they are alien day laborers. Of course, work is going to be hard to come by using those kinds of "hand signals!"

As far as Mecha, I consider them to be a racist and fascist organization that is just one step from being a terrorist group. But I don't think they have much room to grow because they represent a fringe "intellectual" side of Mexican-Americans that has little support in the Chicano community -- they are really just another one of the plethora of far-left groups that make a lot of noise but have little influence.

 
At July 28, 2005 11:42 PM, Blogger Ole said...

Did you know that the new Mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaraigosa, when attending UCLA was the founder of their MEChA chapter which was dedicated to the creation of "Aztlan". He was known as Tony Villa back then.

 
At July 29, 2005 1:37 AM, Blogger erp said...

If they had their families with them, this kind of undesirable behavior would greatly diminish. It's annoying, but are they gang-raping girls? Are the authorities dismissing their bad behavior because it's permitted in their culture.

The second generation Hispanic is an American, the second generation Muslim, is Muslim.

 
At July 29, 2005 6:54 AM, Blogger Zach said...

Erp, who said they did not have their families with them? According to this report, almost 10% of births in the US now are from illegal aliens. That's a lot of families. I am willing to concede that the male/female ratio is lopsided, but not by as much as you seem to assume.

Still, what basis do you have for making the claim that "this kind of undesirable behavior would greatly diminish"? That is just raw speculation.

What is more, the more families there are of illegal aliens, the more children and the more drain on government services, schools, etc, by people who are paying little or no taxes. All this so that they might, maybe, behave somewhat better?

And is gang-raping the gold standard by which we judge if an illegal alien is desirable or not? Don't you think that is setting the bar a bit low? Perhaps I am being unfair to your argument, but I think that the long list of crimes they commit, from illegal entry, to fake documents, to often driving without insurance and using emergency centers as their primary healthcare provider, etc, should not be tolerated to begin with.

 
At July 29, 2005 8:53 AM, Blogger Don Miguel said...

"Are the authorities dismissing their bad behavior because it's permitted in their culture."

If you are talking about the photos, that kind of behavior is "permitted" much less in Latin American culture than it is in American. Shame is a concept that has almost disappeared from American and most European cultures, but is still strong south of the border (regardless of the actions of the ill-bred ass wipes in the photo).

 
At August 20, 2005 4:09 PM, Blogger TheKaffir said...

The left uses women's rights as a come on. But they don't have any real commitment to it. If they had any real commitement to women's rights, they would be demanding a "no burqa or veil law" such as in Italy and harsh penalties for these Islamic rapists. They would be fighting to prevent the immigration of more Muslims to their home countries. But they don't. Because as Ayaan Hirsi and Orianna Fallaci say, they are far more committed to multiculturalism and/or socialism than they are to women's rights.

 

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