Wednesday, July 13, 2005

Is it Islamic "extremism" -- or is it Islam itself?

In the wake of the London bombings, we are forced again to confront this most uncomfortable question: Do the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists truly represent a marginal minority among Muslims worldwide? Or is the term "Islamic fundamentalist" really just a redundancy? If there really is some sort of ongoing war between "extremists" and "moderates" for the soul of Islam, it appears to be one of the quietest contests in the history of ideological warfare. Where do we see remotely comparable numbers of religious terrorists quoting Confucius? Where are all the Buddhist terrorists? Or Christian, Jewish and Hindu car-bombers? Why, in nation after nation, bloody incident after bloody incident, do we find that those responsible for civilian massacres have been almost invariably nurtured on this so-called "religion of peace"? How many years, and how many more bloodbaths, will it take? And how long do we in the West patiently tap our feet, waiting for such reforms in the absence of any visible signs that they are taking place? Don't we have a right at some point to pronounce judgment on the Islamic culture itself?


At July 13, 2005 6:28 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

More than a tiny minority of young British Muslims delight in swapping al-Qaida snuff videos showing Western hostages having their throats slit on their mobile phones;

More than a tiny minority of young British Muslims dominate a huge proportion of urban martial arts clubs;

More than a tiny minority of young British Muslims stare aggressively at perfectly harmless whites who drive through "their areas," and stone fire engines and other symbols of authority;

More than a tiny minority of young British Muslims feel alienated from our society and identify more with Palestinian suicide bombers and Iraqi rebels than with Britain;

More than a tiny minority of young British Muslims are guilty of the low-level racist harassment, vandalism, intimidation and violence that is directed against white families (especially if they include teenage boys) in or on the edge of every mainly Muslim area in the country;

More than a tiny minority of young British Muslims support the extremist Hizb-ut-Tahrir party. Its ability to pack 7,000 of them into a conference in the Birmingham NEC last year would equate to nearly 200,000 young whites attending a KKK rally at Knebworth!

Whole text can be found here.

At July 13, 2005 8:18 PM, Blogger Jason_Pappas said...

I usually ask the question: who is right about Islam – the jihadists or the moderates? After all, Islam has been around for 1400 years. Do we need to wait for more evidence?

Some people find these questions impolite or threatening. But we have to keep asking them. Keep up your fine work.

At July 13, 2005 8:52 PM, Blogger erp said...


I take your question to be:

a. Is Islamic terrorism/extremism a splinter group within Islam, or

b. Is terrorism/extremism an integral part of Islam?

I don't know and I don't think it matters. What matters is that we know that reasoned discourse isn't going to mitigate the problem of strangers hating us so much they are willing to send their children to their deaths just so they can take some of us with them to our deaths.

Western civilization has deteriorated to such an extent that even this severe provocation is not seen as sufficient to roil the blood and to demand an end to these atrocities using whatever means necessary. That means the equivalent of "sending in the marines."

Yet you demur. Just one more round of talks. We've tried Oslo, Camp David and various other venues around the world. All the promises have been observed in the breach, but, but, but, just one more time. A conference in Irkursk? Yes, that might just be the charm.

These murderers must be captured and put to death. Today one of them received life imprisonment in Virginia. Life imprisonment so he can recruit how many more acolytes who will leave prison before his life is over and kill us or our children.

This is the road to madness and the death of our civilization.

At July 13, 2005 9:52 PM, Blogger Simmer said...

Good question. One that may have an obvious answer: Islam itself. However in our politically correct world it would be "insensitive" to accuse Islam itself. Apparently the death of thousands of innocents by muslims are worth not insulting muslims.

At July 13, 2005 9:56 PM, Blogger erp said...

simmertime, may I take it that your comment begins with s/on and ends with s/off?

I hope your don't mean to say that anyone's feeling are worth the life of a single human being?

At July 13, 2005 10:26 PM, Blogger John B said...

Re: "....swapping al-Qaida snuff videos showing Western hostages having their throats slit on their mobile phones;"

Best to ban those dangerous phones - can't have people slitting their throats on them.

At July 13, 2005 10:49 PM, Blogger carl said...

you seem to be forgetting northern ireland (protestant-v-catholic).

one point at issue is that politics and religion tend to go hand in hand, hell probably more intimate than that really, more like french kissing. all of these groups are convinced they are doing god, the world, and themselves a favor blowing us all to hell.

At July 14, 2005 12:33 AM, Blogger felix said...

You are asking the big question of our age.

At July 14, 2005 6:52 AM, Blogger RobertinArabia said...

It would be nice if people read up on the history of Jewish terrorists instead of asserting that there are no Jewish car bombers and bus bomber and massacre perpetrators. All of these criminal acts were common el tools used by Jewish groups in Palestine and elsewhere. Arson and bombs have even been used by the Jewish Defense League in the United States. You have find the details in Dershowitz's book about his early legal career where he describes defending Jewish terrorists in American courts.

At July 14, 2005 7:38 AM, Blogger theBadMonkey said...

As pointed out in Guns, Germs and Steel,(PBS America) certain populations of people, particularly in Africa, New Guinea, did not have the recources to develop a middle class, upper middle class of specialists, craftsmen, tradespeople, (metal working, metal smelting etc...) which does indeed confirm the BELL CURVE. IE: That people who developed in recource rich environments were to some degree allow to breed out an upper middle class based on HIGH LEVEL SKILLS that demand more brainpower.

Thanks Jarod!

The thing he leaves out is TESTOSTERONE, and how it effects the human brain...

Middle Easteners are not the same physiologicaly as Western Europeans, as the Irish are not the SAME as say Germans. Do you see MINORITY gorups talking about how they are the same as Western Eurpoeans? You wont hear it much...Just like in America, the ONLY people who claim "we" are all the SAME are mainly White Euroliberals. The middle eastern males are slightly "psyco-masculine". ETc,.... Anyone know a good anthropology blog?

At July 14, 2005 11:06 AM, Blogger Kifaya said...

At July 14, 2005 11:12 AM, Blogger Kifaya said...

BTW, nice titles on your lasts posts since returning (early?) from your vacation.

the topics and content are probing and insightful.

At July 14, 2005 11:24 AM, Blogger echnaton said...

Try to go to Islam sources and you will find so much evidence of the brutality of its founder and of their moon-god!
And please don't talk about peace and love in the Qur'an. These verses are all abrogated by later ones (yes! God can change his mind, even in the same sura!)Allah has 99 characteristics but love is not inside!
Dear Carl: the n-Irland conflict is not a religious one, but a political one (be more precise next time when telling something)
Dear Robertinarabia:Christians, Yews, Buddhists, Hinduuists, Taoists and so on....we are all humans, and full of contradictions and errors, but if our bad attitudes are corroborated by the behaviour of the instigators of the faith....
How can you be so superficial? Muslim terrorist act int the name of Islam bcs it represents it, while "Christian" or "Yewish" terroristm is a contradiction in terms!

At July 14, 2005 5:38 PM, Blogger Fjordman said...

"It would be nice if people read up on the history of Jewish terrorists"

What's with this big hang-up of yours about Jews? Suicide bombers have been pioneered on Sri Lanka, if anything. Not many Jews there.

At July 14, 2005 7:45 PM, Blogger reliapundit said...

A famous islamic reformer -
- IRSHAD MANJI, (a Muslim/lesbian/feminist and
author of a few book, inclduing "The Trouble With Islam") --

argues that the problem with the fanatics is that they are LITERALISTS.

[ ]

QUESTIONER: What is the trouble with Islam?

Irshad Manji:

"The problem with Islam today, in a word, is literalism. Literalism is a commitment to strict exactness of words or meanings in reading or interpretation."

Unconscuoisly, Manji proves what is INTRINSICALLY bad about Islam: the terrorists can only be LITERALISTS if the KORAN LITERALLY ADVOCATES TERROR AGAINST INFIDELS.

Which it does. And as a result, Islam has used terror from day one - for more than 1000 years.

Not all Muislims are terrorists, but they could be WOTHOURT violating their creed.

The Judeo-Christian sects may have committed genocide and terror, BUT IT IS NOT ADVOCATED OR CONDONED BY THE BIBLE. Instances of genocide occur in the Bible - as they7 did in history, but they are DESCRIPTIVE, NOT PRESCRIPTIVE.

[More on manji here: ]

I think the best hope for Islam is if they can come to see that militant proselytism was originally meant ONLY TO OCCUR AT THE TIME OF MUHAMMED, and that all subsequent uses of violence areacreligious. There is limited basis for this interpretation in the Sura - (I used to have the reference handy; I will search for it.)

At July 15, 2005 2:29 AM, Blogger PD111 said...


Hope you had a good holiday.
Second- and third-generation Muslims are without the don't-rock-the-boat attitude that restricted our forefathers. We're much sassier with our opinions, not caring if the boat rocks or not.

Writes a Muslim in the Guardian,3604,1527323,00.html

What really is worrying about this statement is the confidence this muslim has that as he is born in Britain, he can never be deported as the enemy alien that he really is. Future generations of muslims in the West, will be much more confident of their right as well as being in much larger numbers.

Let us consider the situation that all muslims at present living in the West, came out strongly against the jihad. They even went further and made the changes in their teachings of the koran. Such an outcome would no doubt come as a relief to many on this site. But I counter, that all such changes were being done merely to protect the ummah while it grows at ever increasing pace in the West. Once a near majority is achieved, that future generation of muslims will simply revoke any changes and return to the traditions of the koran. They will even praise this generation of muslims for having done what was necessary to protect islam.

What is to be done? Though unpalatable, the answer is clear enough. Expulsion or an exchange of populations is what I have considered for a long time, to be the only humane way to solve this problem that has the potential to destroy all civilisation. Islam has to expand or else it will perish. Therein lies the Achilles heel of islam.

Islam's death will also release muslims from slavery.


At July 15, 2005 3:18 AM, Blogger PD111 said...

Further to my earlier post.

We have been concentrating too much on the present. What happens in the future and how we avert that danger - that is the issue that should really engage us.

At July 15, 2005 3:42 AM, Blogger PD111 said...

There is no moral schism in Islam. That is what muslims scholars themselves insist. Islam is what it has been for 1400 years, and as clearly revealed to that sociopath mohammed.
I find it annoying to find people comparing a relatively minor civil war in Northern Ireland, to that of the global jihad. It is annoying, as such writers seem to find this sham equivalence, as a justification to claim that Christianity and islam, are both equally violent. The nature of the conflict in Northern Ireland is about the unification of Ireland. Protestant and Catholics were not killing each other in the seventies because the Bible told them to, or they had doctrinal differences of opinion on Biblical theology. It just so happened that the divide was Protestant and Catholic, but the divide is more accurately termed as Loyalist and Republican.


At July 15, 2005 3:03 PM, Blogger Thomas Bolding Hansen said...

It´s Islam itself. When you have a warlord - called prophet who spends his whole life finding bad excuses to attack whole tribes and subdues all of Arabia, followed by numbers of kalifs who conquer large portions of the world. And this prophet is the last from God ( only success out of 128000 )and his revelation is for all times, his actions and words are to be seen as an example. Then you have islam forever unless it´s reformed to a less literal and muhammad centric faith.

There is also a sinister version of the day of judgement, Muhammad said islam would conquer all the world, put all christian nations under it´s yoke, kill all jews. And the rock will say "Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill
him" al-Bukhaari, no. 3593

More above

At July 15, 2005 9:49 PM, Blogger RobertinArabia said...

A little history
The British police have a history of framing people for bombing. At least it resulted in one of the best songs by The Pogues:
"There were six men in Birmingham

In Guildford there's four

That were picked up and tortured

And framed by the law

And the filth got promotion

But they're still doing time

For being Irish in the wrong place

And at the wrong time"

If you read Cryptome regularly, you'll see that British spies are still up to their old tricks.

At July 15, 2005 10:10 PM, Blogger RobertinArabia said...

Those who have been following developments in UK may have noticed the importance of closed circuit television camera in their investigation.
All major American airports have CCTV systems that allow them to track an individual from the time he parks his car until the time his boards his flight.
This provokes the question why there are no public videos tracking the alleged hijackers of 911 through the airports and unto their planes.
The government has only produced videos of Arabs checking in their luggage, but this does not tell us what flights they were boarding.

At July 16, 2005 2:34 AM, Blogger theBadMonkey said...

Has ANYONE ever seen Laurance of Arabia? I thik its a good refrence film on Muslim cultures. Its a violent environment they evolved in, after they turned it into a desert...3500 years ago or so....


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