Monday, September 12, 2005

Norway: Election thriller underway

The latest opinion polls showed Norway's socialist and non-socialist party coalitions running neck and neck as voters started casting ballots in earnest Monday morning. Around 10 percent of the voters remained undecided, meaning they were expected to swing the outcome. The real power broking likely will go on Tuesday, when party leaders negotiate which parties will support which coalition. The Labour Party dominated Norwegian politics for nearly four decades after World War II, but no single party has commanded a majority since the early 1990s. That has left the clearly socialist and non-socialist parties relying on support from the more centrist parties to form a ruling coalition. They're known to go either way, with the Center Party itself taking part in a non-socialist government coalition in the late 1990s, but supporting the so-called "Red Green Alliance" this time around. The alliance, led by the Labour Party and the Socialist Left (SV), has promised to spend more public money on traditional social welfare projects, from filling up closed public swimming pools to refurbishing shabby schools and boost staffing at nursing homes. They held the lead in public opinion polls until early last week. The current non-socialist government, formed by the Christian Democrats, the Conservatives and the LIberals, has claimed that the socialists can't be trusted and likely will raise taxes. They rebounded in the polls about six days ago. Much has been made of Norway's oil wealth, but the biggest political battles are over how to spend it or save it. Many voters, meanwhile, have grown weary of hearing how wealthy Norway is, while hospitals, schools, and other basic services such as garbage collection and street-cleaning languish under budget constraints. Both the right-wing Progress Party and the tiny Coastal Party may prove the jokers in the complicated political negotiations that loom after the election.

30 Comments:

At September 12, 2005 4:45 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Sorry for being a little off topic now but this could be of some interest for others:

British political police seized the whole printrun of British National Party's newspaper on ground of possible "incitment to racial hatred".

BBC link

Well I would expect that only one piece of that newspaper is enough to evaluate whether "the incitment" was commited. Anyone interested what "the incitment" could be can check the newspaper on this page. The newspaper links are in the middle of the article.

 
At September 12, 2005 4:51 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Facit: the real reason for this unlawful act was the BNP's criticism over Islam and Islam immigration.

And of course I hope I will hear good news from Norway in the evening :-).

 
At September 12, 2005 6:37 PM, Blogger Fjordman said...

I'm not sure I always agree with the BNP, but I suspect this was another attempt by Labour and Blair to appease Muslims.

Blair and his entire cabinet is a disaster.

 
At September 12, 2005 8:36 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Fjordman, I do not agree with the BNP each time. But I must admit that they are the most feasible UK party for me. Especially after Conservatives revealed themselves as the "Islamic values are Conservative values" party.

I've just watched the very first results from your election. Socdem at 30+ %, Frp 20+ % but the left wing majority. :|.

 
At September 12, 2005 9:18 PM, Blogger Teratism said...

Oh Dear.
I hadn't read that about the Tories. "If I recollect" (tack Unforgiven) there was an "incitement to religious hatred" bill cast earlier in the year. This lead to some objections concerning free speech.

Perhaps we're seeing the calculated results?

 
At September 12, 2005 9:35 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Hi teratism,

In my previous post I alluded at this Michael Howard's remark:

“Britain is enriched beyond measure by the talent, contribution and hard work of British Muslims up and down the country. The values of the Muslim community - commitment to family, a spirit of hard work and devotion to community - are all values which the Conservative Party shares and cherishes.”

For a complete (?) list of similar "Conservative" remark please check this article.

 
At September 12, 2005 10:14 PM, Blogger Teratism said...

But whatever.
BNP? freedom of speech is necessary, and all opinions must be freely aired (Don't shout fire, etc.).
However like all of us on the Fjördman, I don't care about racist stuff myself.

We are culturalists.

And our culture is very important. It's developed through awful stuff over the centuries and there is no-way I want to see things degenerate when we should continue to advance.
Perhaps this should go on LGF, but, hell, Fjördman is cool and close to home. Norman elections just might reverse the degeneration.

Hej Norge!
Stop the procrastinating and creat an exciting, dynamic land to advance the people, with science, technology and space travel. And stop worrying about who's going to clean the sewers and vote labour

 
At September 12, 2005 10:34 PM, Blogger Teratism said...

Hi Kledo.
Yeah, politicians will sell their children's souls for an electoral advantage.
Amazing isn't it?
I actually liked Haig (up to the Notting Hill Cap fiasco), until I realised his "quick wit" amongst his peers was his only talent.

-Being clever in a certain way among a certain folk-

Tony Bliar?
Michael Howard?
Blah blah blah?

We do look towards England when we suspect the worst. But now all we have is the USA.
I hope over the pond someone unexpected might emerge.

/Teratism

 
At September 12, 2005 11:55 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

So Mr. Stoltenberg will be the prime minister of Norway. This night will be long.

 
At September 13, 2005 4:38 AM, Blogger Parliament said...

Oh well. At least Red-Green is on the way out in Germany.

 
At September 13, 2005 6:07 AM, Blogger ElCid2004 said...

They (Left) are on the way in in Norge, it's a black day in history!

It's like a big wellcomepost to all immigrants and asylumseekers, who will eventually burn up the country from inside like cancer.

We in Holland experience it everyday and left is upcoming once more in our once nice country too.

 
At September 13, 2005 12:15 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

A lot of spindoctoring on "far right" success in Norway.

 
At September 13, 2005 4:07 PM, Blogger Herr Unswedenizer said...

Concerning BNP and parties of the kind: I believe that it is possible to be right for the very wrong reasons. For example Le Pen in France is completely on the other end of the political scale from where I stand.

And concerning Tony Blair: He should get a lot of credit for the things that he's doing right. He's the major force in pushing important future issues in the right direction in the UK. And the fact that he's left-wing has confused the UK right-wing to the degree that they still haven't figured what to do with it. I'd say that the right-wing in the UK is even worse than that in Norway. The day that they quite acting as weak petty partisans and start acting in the interest of the future of the country, they will find that Tony Blair has given them an excellent start.

Let's hope Kenneth Clarke gets things right. I have hope for this guy.

 
At September 13, 2005 4:35 PM, Blogger Herr Unswedenizer said...

...translated into US politics:

The question is: Are you on the side of George W Bush, Rudy Giuliani and the kind, or?

If you start walking on the path of the narrow-minded nationalism of Pat Buchanan and the kind, then you will eventually end up with David Duke, Cindy Sheehan and their ilk. Completing the full circle, ending up in the position that we were supposed to oppose.

The successful anti-establishment parties in Denmark, Holland and Norway do not have any history of anti-semitism and crypto-nazism. It is true that previously brown parties in other European countries have reformed today and thereby being able to attract new people for non-brown reasons. But with such a history they can never be successful, never grow enough. The only thing they can manage is to be the stumbling block, blocking the creation of a proper party.

There is a very simple litmus test here: If there has ever been anti-semitism in the history of the party, then it is the wrong party.

 
At September 13, 2005 6:01 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Herr Unswedenizer,

it depends. I have to admit that as far as the neoconservatives are concerned I differ on that issue with significant part of other readers on Fjordman's blog. I'm going to refrain from name calling (and expect the same in the opposite direction) but in order to answer your statemenst concerning Mr. Bush I must say that if I were at the same ship with him and his companions I would rather jump into the sea. So in this point our opinions differ totally.

I don't know if I could affiliate myself with Pat Buchanan and others from so called US "far right". Their orthodox version of christianity would be the probable the most significant problem preventing me from "joining" them. But I will not throw the stones at them because some people are saying that they are utterly bad guys.

In my eyes nobody represents the decay and failure of our civilization better than the Labour Party in the UK. They are emmisaries of Doom.

.... ADVISERS appointed by Tony Blair after the London bombings are proposing to scrap the Jewish Holocaust Memorial Day because it is regarded as offensive to Muslims. ....

source: Times online

But back to the BNP. I do expect that opinions on this party varies immensely among Fjordman's readers (and that this issue could be bitterly divisive). I've already said that I do not agree with them on some issues. But after all - they are simply my choice.

 
At September 13, 2005 7:10 PM, Blogger Fjordman said...

Herr Unswedenizer is correct: A party that has shown tendencies to anti-semitism is ALWAYS the wrong party. I could never vote for the BNP, for that simple reason. Yes, the BNP smacks too much of the Le Pen ilk, and they only create problems. I would go for the UKIP, and hope for a better candidate from the Tories the next time.

 
At September 13, 2005 7:41 PM, Blogger Herr Unswedenizer said...

Kledo,

I really hope that you have chosen the wrong party for the right reasons. In that case you now should listen to me.

Let me first illustrate the fundamental problem with an example from my own country Sweden. Here we have a 1% party called Sverigedemokraterna, which I would say corresponds to BNP.

While I really think it is a good policy to forbid people wearing nazi uniforms at party meetings, it is indeed something very creepy abd fundamentally wrong with a party that has to explicitly state such a rule, which as been the case with Sverigedemokraterna.

A party such as Sverigedemokraterna is perfectly all part of the problem, and not at all part of the solution, in the dysfunctional non-debate climate in Sweden. Quite as the Catholic church needed Satanists to fight in order to look brave in medival times, the leftist elite needs the kinds as BNP and Sverigedemokraterna to fight in order to look brave (at hardly no cost). Self-admitted satanists are the best possible ally of the hegemonical elite in a society. The reconfirm their world view better than anyone else. Parties such as BNP is the best possible friend of the leftist elite.

 
At September 13, 2005 7:50 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Fjordman,

Just now I see the question of (former) antisemitism a little off topic even though it could gain an importance in the future. Moreover in the near future could be antiislamism pronounced to be the new antisemitism. In that case many of us could be considered public enemies No. 1. Just read the article I've posted in my previous submission.

UKIP=inefficiency and they will probably diminish in the future. UK Conservatives are probably more down-watered than Hoyre. So much to your hopes.

Moreover if I remember correctly 2 of 20 BNP councillors are of Jewish ancestry. On the other hand you are right that for very long time BNP was a source of problems rather than the answer, but for example the past of the German Green party was far more violent than in the case of BNP.

But can you see the difference? Whilst the BNP is public enemy No. 1 Mr. Fischer is German Vice-Chancellor. And especielly his past is pretty odd.

 
At September 13, 2005 7:59 PM, Blogger Herr Unswedenizer said...

More about being right for the wrong reasons, and being wrong for the right reasons:

I recently discussed Iraq with Fjordman. He said the whole Iraq thing was a failure. I disagree with him. If I would like to be witty I would summarize that I support them because they are wrong for the right reasons. But this is another debate...

And having the right reasons is more important than anything else.

It is also possible to be right for the very wrong reasons. Islamism and demographic jihad must be opposed to save Western culture, yes. But there are quite a few people for whom anti-islamism is merely a substitute or a complement to anti-semitism.

The only anti-islamism that will be successful is the one that is staucnhly based in the opposition to anti-semitism.

There is a logic to both ways of reasoning. The first one fits within a narrow-minded nationalism where anything but "my own" nation is opposed. The isolationalism of Pat Buchanan is an example. And interestingly enough, since they are isolationalist they cannot even come to agree with each other across the countries.

The second one fits with the view of opposing intolerance. Anti-semitism has historically been the worst kind of intolerance, and next to the nazis, the muslims are the ones being most anti-semitic.

Even f you stand for the second one, you will be accused of the the first. So if you have any history of the first: Goodbye! Then you won't stand a chance as a party.

 
At September 13, 2005 8:10 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Herr Unswedenizer,

I'm not an expert concerning the parties in your country but I'm aware that there are two so-called "far right" parties in Sweden. Nationaldemokraterna and Sverigedemokraterna (the first one more radical).

Your story about Nazi uniforms sounds to me like suburban legend but in case it is right I would say that I hope it was the problem.

You and Fjordman must understand two things when arguing with me:

a) I do not intend to escape the forthcoming doom of our civilization only to find myself living in some form of neonazi Reich. I'm to liberal for that.

b) But on the other hand I do not intend to waste my time in vain hopes that for example Hoyre or Conservatives will be enlightened in the future. Erma Solberg in the year 2009 will be the same as in 2005. Too much time has been already wasted and we are running out of it.

I've considered my choices for very long time and I find my choices correct. I do not find your Guardian style description of the BNP appropriate. And Herr Unswedizer I find the lack of Sverigedemokraterna's influence good and reasonable explanation of the unfortunate state of your country. BTW Sverigedemokraterna is as radical as PP in Norway. Danish People's Party is affiliated with them I believe.

 
At September 13, 2005 8:15 PM, Blogger Herr Unswedenizer said...

Kledo,

I fear that you are right about much of what you say about the Tories and UKIP. But you should listen carefully about what I have to say about BNP. Just because the are strongly opposed to islamization does not make it the right party. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no party for you to support in your country. That is the case for me in Sweden.

Here is a taste of BNP:

Bush Re-election Entrenches the Neo-Cons

Perfectly David Duke, Cindy Sheehan demagogy all the way. Israel, jews, neo-cons, oil, Bush puppet Blair, etc.

Notice how Neo-Cons is used as a code word for Jew Conspiracy. He even feels the need to use a whole paragraph to disclaim anti-semitism.

And the "puppet Blair" talk is for ignorants. Blair was decisive in dealing with Iraq even before Bush was elected president. But that's for another discussion...

 
At September 13, 2005 8:39 PM, Blogger Herr Unswedenizer said...

Kledo:I do not find your Guardian style description of the BNP appropriate. And Herr Unswedizer I find the lack of Sverigedemokraterna's influence good and reasonable explanation of the unfortunate state of your country. BTW Sverigedemokraterna is as radical as PP in Norway. Danish People's Party is affiliated with them I believe.

Kledo,

This will probably surprise you. But it is you that have a Guardian style description of things. You use the term "far right" all the time to describe these parties, and I claim that there is no sensible meaning of that concept.

There is a very good reason why nazism spells out as National Socalism. It is because it is socialism just as left-wing socialism is, only with the internatonalism taken out, and some symbols replaced.

There is a very simple reason why Cindy Sheehan (pet of the Democratic party) end up on the same side as David Duke (American Neo-Nazi).


The Progress Party in Norway is completely different in nature from BNP or Sverigedemokraterna. PP started as a libertarian party, and in many ways still is. All are anti-establishment parties yes, but there are many ways to be against the establishment. For example the Jihadists are clearly anti-establishment too.

I want to point out again how there is a one to one correspondence between the European countries having anti-establishment parties with an anti-semitic past -- such as France, Sweden, Belgium -- and the complete failure to deal with the problems, and on the other hand the countries with anti-establishment parties solidly rooted in liberal western values -- such as Denmark, Holland, Norway -- and a much better situation, at least when it comes to a proper debate.

The UK has many upsides too, but all thanks to Blair and nothing thanks to BNP.

Actually, even though Le Pen and his ilk opposes islamization now. Due to his anti-semitism, his narrow-minded view and his lack of idea of a free society, his perfectly the type that I imagine as collaborator they day when the Mullahs take over France. They could respect him sufficiently, and vice versa.

 
At September 13, 2005 8:40 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Herr Unswedenizer,

first your assumption that the parties (formerly) affiliated with antisemitism are doomed to fade is incorrect.

Austrian FPOE secured in 2000 elections highest ever percentage gain among so called "far right" parties. Vlaams Belang (formerly known for its antisemitism) is probably the strongest single political party in Belgium (at around 25+ % share of voters preference in Flander) now. Apparently it is ambivalent.

In a 2003 investigation the Newsnight programme discovered that its website promotes racism and anti-Semitic hatred, calls suicide bombers martyrs, and urges Muslims to kill Jewish people.

BNP article

Well this discussion is getting to be more about empty quibbling so I do not find it worthy to participitate in it further. And if your final advice to me is about reconsidering the support for the BNP, my advice to you is to consider your support for Sverigedemokraterna.

 
At September 13, 2005 8:52 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Herr Unswedenizer,

I'm using double apostrophes in the term "far right". It's my form of scorn at the political correctness :).

Austrian Freedom Party (FPOE) have been maintaining both libertaniasm and some form of antisemitism for very long time. But I agree that this not the case of Frp.

Moreover many from French Jewish population voted for Le Pen in the past. Apparently they have found FN to be their best choice against the Islamistic violence - nevertheless of the verbal antisemitism among some parts of FN membership/electorate.

Apparently we are seeing the failure of our societies.

 
At September 13, 2005 9:11 PM, Blogger Herr Unswedenizer said...

Kledo,

You are correct. FPÖ and Vlams Belang are parties with an antisemitic past that grown to a considerable size. Le Pen's party is another example.

But they are still stuck in the sense that they will not get other parties with them. They have no potential to shift the political climate. On the contrary, they make it get stuck.

Also it's plainly wrong. I would never trust a party with an anti-semitic past. I'm a jew-lover to the core. And I love America too, which these parties don't.

Okay, I guess that we won't get any further.

(I hate Europe...)

 
At September 13, 2005 9:14 PM, Blogger Herr Unswedenizer said...

Kledo:Austrian Freedom Party (FPOE) have been maintaining both libertaniasm and some form of antisemitism for very long time. But I agree that this not the case of Frp.

FPÖ is a weird contradicton of a party only because Austria is a weird contradiction of a country. (and you should replace "libertarianism" with "liberalism" above).

 
At September 13, 2005 9:20 PM, Blogger Herr Unswedenizer said...

Finally, regarding Tony Blair: Since Kledo and Fjordman were all negative, I felt the need to bring up the positive sides. However, for a balanced view of Tony Blair I suggest that you read a couple of articles by Mark Steyn. I agree 100% with Mark Steyn about his view of Tony Blair. And it is definitely not all positive.

 
At September 13, 2005 10:09 PM, Blogger Kledo said...

Herr Unswedenizer,

OK :).

Good night.

 
At September 14, 2005 12:06 AM, Blogger Herr Unswedenizer said...

Good night, Kledo!

Wake up another day ;-)

 
At September 14, 2005 12:18 AM, Blogger Herr Unswedenizer said...

Final note:

Kledo,

You appear to be a pragmatic realist more than anything else. For someone from the outside -- I'm thinking of the United States -- it will seem as a weird thing for me to say, considering some of the things he said. But that would only mean that you have not yet grasped to what degree political life in Europe is a degenerated mess. This is what happens in a country where there is no strong sensible right-wing, such as the Republican party in the US. Denmark is the only real exception to this in Europe, and they are even ahead of the US in many ways. Amazing little country -- our Little Satan :-)

Anyway Kledo. It seems that you want to work actively about this. I wouldn't mind bringing up this discussion again further on. I would of course like you to be as effective as possible in what you do.

 

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