Wednesday, December 14, 2005

Online Workshop Part 6: An Alliance of Civilizations?

How will the relationship be between the West and non-Western cultures in the 21st century? My best bet is that the West (at least the USA, maybe not Europe) will continue to be the most dynamic civilization for a long time to come, but maybe not powerful enough to keep up the present world order alone. Is an alliance with non-Western civilizations such as India, which we are already seeing some signs of, a viable alternative? Is it possible to have this with a democratic China, or is China destined to be a rival more than a partner? Are we seeing the signs of a global, universal civilization, which will join forces against Islam?


At December 14, 2005 4:57 PM, Blogger eLarson said...

China is looking to expand it's economy, so there is a natural rivalry in terms of competition for resources.

One thing to watch is for any further unrest in the south. China's present regime has the theory that if economic opportunity is offered, then political freedom will not be necessary. Unrest in the developed south would bring that theory crashing to the ground.

At December 14, 2005 5:40 PM, Blogger erp said...

Chinese people aren't stupid. They'll join the Anglosphere with Israel, India and Japan and possibly some South American countries and former soviet bloc countries for peace and prosperity.

Countries controlled by Islam will be excluded until they learn to live in peace with their neighbors.

There's no mystery to it. Anyone can join in. A free economy can expand indefinitely, it's only socialism that can't succeed when the critical mass is reached.

At December 14, 2005 6:35 PM, Blogger France Sucks said...

India already has experience with muslims. Count them in.

At December 14, 2005 8:14 PM, Blogger Athena1040 said...

Bush has already adopted a policy designed to draw India closer to the United States in a strategic alliance. This is a good move. Remember both the U.S. and India were British colonies. We (I'm American) have that British influence in common. This helps Americans and Indians communicate even though our religion and cultures are very different. India's up and coming leaders have embraced moderntiy (economic vitalism and equal rights for all citizens). Given that Islam is an enemy to both India and the United States the combination is a natural one.

Bush has arranged for India to receive some of the very high tech weapons that America's allows only its closest allies to have. India is on board and, as an American, I am very happy for it.

As a student I had the pleasure of studying with a number of engineering students from India and I was very favorably impressed. They were excellent ambassadors for their country. Extremely bright, very gentle, friendly and considerate. I suppose these students represent the best of India (there have to be jerks in India also) but the students I knew are welcome in my country any time.

At December 14, 2005 9:37 PM, Blogger oldgranny said...

Athena, do you really mean to say this: Americans and Indians communicate even though our religion and cultures are very different.

I'm American too and as far as I know, and I've been around a long time, we don't have a religion, and our culture is made up of the various ingredients that went into the melting pot. So an Indian arriving in a U.S. city for the first time, would I think, find things that look familiar and even some great Indian restaurants.

At December 14, 2005 11:06 PM, Blogger Athena1040 said...

Agreed that the United States does not have "a religion." I have no argument with that concept. We have a secular government and no established religion. An important distinction from say, Saudi Arabia. I support the separation of church and state fully.

My reference was to the "facts on the ground" that 88% of all American citizens describe themselves as Christian. Secondly, our laws were inherited from England for the most part. Most American law is English Common law. English Common Law was developed over the centuries in a country that was legally and officially Christian at the time. Hence Christian moral theology is part and parcel of our laws and our culture by our history.

At December 14, 2005 11:09 PM, Blogger Athena1040 said...

Islam retards economic development. Islam contains many constraints on society that retard economic development. Restrictions on the freedom of women mean that many otherwise talented people do NOT become doctors, lawyers, and scientists. Imposing a FAST for 30 days each year tends to destroy economic productivity for 1/12 of the year. Prohibitions against charging interest on loans virtually blocks the development of modern banking and finance. Some Islamic clerics have denounced insurance as a form of prohibited gambling.

There are many other mandatory provisiosn of Islam that simply burden or destroy economic producitivity. Any country free to compete economically without Islam will excell any country burdened by Islam. Without oil the Umma is the beggar community of the world.

At December 14, 2005 11:24 PM, Blogger Heloise said...

Yes, there will be interesting alliances between the West and the East. China is inscrutable underneath her new facade of materialism, always xenophobic and yet, ultimately, very practical. They face huge problems playing catch up but they can mobilize their numbers and work like bees. elarson is right as is erps regarding China and India, I think.

The nut to crack here is expanding economies in the midst of shrinking natural resources. No political elites are talking about this and where it will lead. Energy is the key here as our economies, and all modernized nations run on some energy source, mainly oil which we all know is due to run out in this century.

And of course, if some whacko islamic dictator sets off the big bomb, the major East/West powers will form some type of allliance.
Where eurabia will be in that scenario will depend on how far the dhimmitude has gone and if the islamic minority controls the geo-politics of the majority.

At December 15, 2005 12:18 AM, Blogger tefta said...

heloise, don't worry about natural resources being used up. That's an old leftwing canard they used to frighten us. If a resource dries up, American ingenuity will just find another way of doing things.

At December 15, 2005 5:53 AM, Blogger ik said...

Indian politician: Hindus, Christians must unite to fight jihad

Excerpt from above article
"VHP leader Praveen Togadia on Saturday advocated a ‘civilisation treaty’ between Hindus and Christians to defeat ‘jihadi terrorism, spreading all over the world’. “Jihadi terrorism has become the biggest international challenge and even the main subject of the summit at the United Nations and the 85 crore Hindus and over 170 crore Christians should jointly fight and enter into a ‘civilisation treaty’ against this,” Togadia said."

by the way Indian system of counting (we do not have millions and billions - we have lakhs and crores)
100,000 = 1 lakh
100 lakh = 1 crore (10 million)

About China
I think that we need to think very hard on whether Chinese behaviour in the last 50 odd years is a reflection of Communism or a reflection of their National Character. Personally I would like to believe that it is because of communism.

Whether China will become a danger o the world, I think depends on how deeply the Cultural Revolution uprooted their civilizational roots. If it completely disconnected them from their roots then we would end up having an alienated civilization which would act quite destructively. On the other hand if they still remain connected to their historical roots then they will be on the side of civilization against the barbarians.

At December 15, 2005 6:18 AM, Blogger ik said...

Go to google news and type "sydney" - 99% of the news articles are saying that the riots are because the Aussies are racist - You guys need to do something to end this kind of reporting of lies. I have already had discussions with other Indians and they seemed to believe that the "racist" Aussies were rioting - it was only when it was pointed out to them that Muslims were involved that it "clicked" - even then there were "doubts"

What will happen if the Chinese or Japanese read such news articles? How are they going to become allies?

The Muslims are clearly winning the media war and the "psy-war" - People keep saying that - oh if the Aussies had Guns then nothing would have happened - this is missing the Point - psy-war has been a key component of warfare since the begining of time - How can such a big component of war be left wasted?

Maybe people could try to join local chapters of organizations like

Biased Cartoonist Sacked

Honest Reporting Australia

If honest reporting is too Israel focused then some other organization may be set up or expand the charter of honest reporting maybe?

At December 15, 2005 8:42 AM, Blogger ik said...

Here are two organizations set up to improve US-India relations

Robert Spencer is part of this group

He discusses it here

Here is a site run by an Indian guy Ram Narayan in the US

At December 15, 2005 3:35 PM, Blogger nalymov said...

I cannot see a "democratic China". As soon as it adopts even the slightest principles of democracy, the colossus will fall apart. Onle the current dictatorship still glues it together.

At December 22, 2005 2:59 AM, Blogger Steppenwolf said...

This alliance has already started. As an Indian I know that India and Israel are very closely tied now especially in defence deals. India buys a lot of Israeli armament. If I'm not mistaken, Israel is now the 2nd largest supplier of arms to India after Russia.

The recent India-US war games are surely a manifestation of this alliance. US elite seals are now trained in India in jungle and desert warfare.

But as ik said, its most important that we get the media over to our side. The reporting is terribly biased and usually toward the Islamists.


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