Saturday, November 05, 2005

French Question Loyalty of Moslem Troops

Will French Muslim troops be willing to go against Muslim rioters in France if ordered to? I'm not so sure:

French Question Loyalty of Moslem Troops

France has been detecting, or at least fearing, loyalty problems among the fifteen percent of its soldiers who are Moslem. The military insists that these second and third generation soldiers of, for the most part, Arab descent, are loyal. But many Christian soldiers, NCOs and officers are not so sure. Harassment of Moslem troops by Christian soldiers is common. There have been no major incidents of soldiers turned terrorists, but the abuse from paranoid soldiers, NCOs and officers might push Moslem soldiers to go bad. This is believed more likely because there are no Moslem chaplains. Thus Moslem soldiers seek spiritual advice from clerics with no military experience, and possible a radical agenda. More worrisome is that radicalized soldiers will leave the army equipped with skills they can use for terrorist attacks.

Week of violence prompts French soul-searching

The rioters are young, overwhelmingly Muslim men, second-generation immigrants from France's former Arab and African colonies, who claim they are protesting economic misery, racial discrimination and provocative policing. Hardline new law-and-order policies implemented by interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy have also been widely accused of fuelling anger in the high-rise, mainly immigrant estates where the trouble has spread. Sociologist Michel Wierviorka, speaking in Le Parisien newspaper, charged that Sarkozy had "stigmatised entire communities" by arguing that crime-ridden areas should be "cleaned with a power-hose". Police union leader Bruno Beschizza described the riots as "urban terrorism", led by small knots of criminals as well as Islamic radicals.

Rioting Spreads From Paris Across France

Marauding youths torched nearly 900 vehicles, stoned paramedics and burned a nursery school in a ninth night of violence that spread from Paris suburbs to towns around France, police said Saturday. Authorities arrested more than 250 people overnight — a sweep unprecedented since the unrest began. For the first time, authorities used a helicopter to chase down youths armed with gasoline bombs who raced from arson attack to arson attack.

Taheri: French rioters calling for reorganization of France into separate religious enclaves

Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its religious beliefs.


At November 05, 2005 11:34 PM, Blogger CarnackiUK said...

Prior to the civil war in Lebanon, most of the rank and file soldiers in the Lebanese Army were moslems while most officers were Christian. I remember reading that one morning when the troops assembled on the parade ground, all the Christians had their throats cut and the troops went over to the Islamist/Palestinian side in the conflict. This should be a warning to the French and other countries with a large moslem population.

Shortsightedly, the British recently announced they wanted to recruit more moslems into the armed forces.

At November 05, 2005 11:51 PM, Blogger Ole said...

When I was a boy, there were many movies and stories about the French Foreign Legieon and their fight against the Arabs in North Africa.

Now, people from these same North African countries have moved into France.Why does anyone think that their regards for the French have changed?

At November 06, 2005 12:03 AM, Blogger PD111 said...

Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its religious beliefs.

Ah yes the Bosnia solution. Milosovitch in his cell in Holland must have a smile on his face.

At November 06, 2005 12:24 AM, Blogger PD111 said...

These naive muslims do not know what they are playing at.Churchill had this to say of democracies when they are left with no option.

"No terms but fight or death were offered. No reparation or apology could be made. . . The red light of retribution played on the bayonets and the lances, and civilization—elsewhere sympathetic, merciful, tolerant, ready to discuss or to argue, eager to avoid violence, to submit to law, to effect a compromise—here advanced with an expression of inexorable sternness, and rejecting all other courses, offered only the arbitration of the sword."

At November 06, 2005 12:35 AM, Blogger PD111 said...

LONDON: A chemical and biological terrorist attack is in prospect and a nuclear attack cannot be ruled out in Britain, a former head of British intelligence said in remarks published Thursday.

Sir Richard Dearlove, who retired last year as head of the Secret Intelligence Service, said the July 7 bombings that killed 52 London commuters did not amount to a “strategic terrorist event,” the Daily Telegraph reported. Dearlove, who was taking part in a debate on terrorism arranged by the London law firm Ashurst, said the July attacks on three subway trains and a bus “bore the characteristic of a locally planned and carried-out event”.

However British officials probably had to conclude that “the clock is running on some much more dreadful events that could occur,” the former MI6 chief said.

From the ever resourceful CAGE.

At November 06, 2005 1:04 AM, Blogger Aldamir said...

If this happened in Britain the media would all say that it was a consequence of our government's support for the Iraq war....

At November 06, 2005 1:06 AM, Blogger Aldamir said...

if the riots happened in Britain, that is

At November 06, 2005 1:29 AM, Blogger Panteren said...

Soldiers fight for their comrades. Unless the muslim soldiers in generel feel totally unaccepted, wich I doubt, they'll fight. History has shown that quite clearly. Of course there will be some wich don't feel any loyalty towards their comrades and might be placing their loyalty some where else. But that will properly be very few. In generel I don't think the french army has a problem about this.

At November 06, 2005 4:00 AM, Blogger tefta said...

We had a Muslim soldier throw a grenade into an officer's tent. I believe he's been convicted and is in jail. I wouldn't trust them in the military.

In fact, although I never thought I would, I won't have an Arab doctor and any medical personnel near me or any member of my family.

I'm sorry if they’re offended, but it's not my problem. Muslims can denounce the senseless killing, but they choose not to as I choose to put distance between them and me.

At November 06, 2005 6:27 AM, Blogger Don Miguel said...


Most Arabs in the U.S. are Christians, not Muslims. Nice to see you have an open mind.

At November 06, 2005 12:47 PM, Blogger GunJam said...

fjordman: Great piece with great comments. I have linked to it here:

At November 06, 2005 2:27 PM, Blogger tefta said...

don miguel,

An open mind? Is that what you have? My mind closed on 9/11.

Most of the Arabs in this country aren’t Christian, but that’s not the point, the point is that the open mind that you advocate is what led to the rioting and violence in France and Denmark and is poised to erupt in other open-minded societies.

Much as I despise name calling, I must say that people like you who won't face facts and who are naive and foolish are causing untold misery and suffering to others while allowing you to believe you hold the moral high ground.

At November 06, 2005 2:57 PM, Blogger tefta said...

Don Miguel, Your comment really annoyed me. Our way of life is in serious jeopardy and your comment -- sneering sarcasm about something you obviously know little about.

Read this and get a clue please. Mark Steyn, 10/5/05

At November 06, 2005 4:43 PM, Blogger Don Miguel said...

Well, tefta, that's just too bad you were annoyed; if the facts bother you then that's your problem.

If you had managed to do the research instead of letting your prejudices get in the way, you would find that the majority of Arabs in the U.S. are not only Christian, but they are also native-born. Remember that you stated "I won't have an Arab doctor and any medical personnel near me or any member of my family." Now exactly how does that put a distance between you and Muslims when odds are that the Arab doctor is a Christian?

I'm quite aware of the danger of Islam. Are you aware of the danger of ignorance? Try getting a clue yourself.

At November 06, 2005 7:19 PM, Blogger Jude the Obscure said...

Most of the Arabs in the US are Christian? That's news to me as well.

How do you know they are not muslims just practising that ketman thing? (Or taqqiya or whatever it is called.)

At November 06, 2005 8:22 PM, Blogger Don Miguel said...


The number of Muslim Arab Americans is around 25%. 13% are another or no religion and the rest are Christian. The reason they are not faking it is because they know Muslims as well are better than anyone else -- that's why they immigrated to the U.S. Don't forget that Egypt has millions of Coptic Christians who are constantly persecuted. And around a third of Arab Americans have their origins in Lebanon, which has a large Christian population. There are various sources for this information including the U.S. census.

At November 06, 2005 9:06 PM, Blogger tefta said...

don miguel, perhaps you are not familiar with U.S. healthcare. Many, many doctors are here on different kinds of visas, are not citizens and many many speak little or no English. I don't know how many of them would appear in the census.

Your contention that Lebanese Christians and Egyptian Copts make up over half the Arab population in the U.S. is preposterous. If that’s the case, why so many mosques?

Prior to 9/11, I had no prejudices, and unfortunately it's not only my problem. As for allowing an Arab doctor near me or my family? I don’t care if they claim to be agnostic, atheist or Christian, they aren’t to be trusted. Among the killers on that fateful day were Arabs who were well educated and some seemed even to be assimilated, but when Allah called, they went out to kill the infidel.

If Christian Arabs are here in the numbers you suggest, why was there no ground swell from this community condemning terrorism. That’s the proof of the pudding as far as I’m concerned.

If you’re an American, you may of course seek healthcare from whomever you want. That’s the American way I life I seek to preserve.

At November 06, 2005 9:57 PM, Blogger Don Miguel said...

Look, I don't care what you believe, but all government and non-government sources I have read state that only about 25% of Arab Americans are Muslim. It is not a contention, it is an established fact.

"Your contention that Lebanese Christians and Egyptian Copts make up over half the Arab population in the U.S. is preposterous. If that’s the case, why so many mosques?"

Of course, it is preposterous because I didn't say that. I said "around a third of Arab Americans have their origins in Lebanon," which I got from the U.S. census. I never made any statement about the number of Arab Americans being Egyptian Copts.

As far as why so many mosques, it would be for the very simple reason that the majority of Muslims in the U.S. are not Arabs. You certainly seem to have a problem distinguishing between Arabs and Muslims. But then, why let facts get in the way?

BTW, I guess you would prefer to die rather than to receive an artificial heart from Dr. Michael DeBakey, an Arab American … and a Christian.

At November 07, 2005 2:02 AM, Blogger 13times said...

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me."

- General George S. Patton

At November 07, 2005 6:04 AM, Blogger GayLikeAFox said...

I think don miguel is right. For some time now emigration to the West has been emptying the Middle East of its Christian communities.

Alot of these Christians are Lebanese, who are fair-skinned and blend will into the larger white society, which may be why we really don't pick them out so much. Ralph Nader, for example, is a Lebanese Christian.

At November 07, 2005 7:53 AM, Blogger ik said...

In Indian history the 2 most critical battles which we lost were lost because the Muslim soldiers on our side that we trusted went over to the side of their foreign Muslim "brothers".

1. Battle of Panipat which ended up losing North India
2. Battle of Talakota which finished off the Vijaynagar kingdom in South India.

The first loyalty of a Muslim is to his religion - EVERYTHING else comes second.

Here is some coverage of jihadi soldiers in the US Army
Uncle Sam's Jihadists

Again and again there have been disturbing incidents with Muslim soldiers in the Indian army whch the Indian Government censors.

Don Miguel
1. The lebanese christians are supposed to be descendants of the Phoenicians - not arabs
2. The Coptic Christians in Egypt predate the Arab invasions of Egypt. Prior to the Arab invasions of Egypt there were no "Arabs" in Egypt

Arabs come from the Arabian peninsula (currently Saudi Arabia /Yemen/Oman etc.)- everywhere else they are invaders/settlers - including Iraq-Syria.

Practically all the Christian communities in the middle east predate the "arabization" of the middle east - so they CANNOT be arabs

This is a big pile of BS which has been pulled by corrupting Academia in the West to keep calling "Arab countries" - Even in Morocco the population is 75% berber NOT arab although it is classified as a "Arab country" (Berbers are brainwashed from choldhood to think of themselves as Arabs)

I would think it is you who are ignorant of Middle Eastern history.

Finally Islam is just a cloak for Arab IMPERIALISM - read "Islam-the Arab national movement by Anwar Sheikh

At November 07, 2005 9:23 AM, Blogger Don Miguel said...

"I would think it is you who are ignorant of Middle Eastern history."


Well, that is an interesting conclusion considering I didn't state anything having to do with Middle Eastern history. And the pre-Islamic and the Arabization of the Middle East are not relevant to my point. All that I said is that the group of Americans who are classified as Arab Americans are predominately Christian, not Muslim. To paraphrase you, "I would think it is you who are ignorant of Arab Americans."

If you and tefta would bother to really read what I said, you could quit trying to tell me what I already know about Islam, Muslims and Arabs from the Middle East.

At November 07, 2005 1:51 PM, Blogger tefta said...

An old ad campaign slogan for black colleges seems apropos here, A Mind is a Terrible Thing to Waste.

BTW - You forgot John Sununu and Ted Kennedy's new wife.


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